11:00:40 BREESE QUINN: Good morning everybody. 11:00:42 Welcome to community engagement across the 11:00:44 frontiers 11:00:46 what will be looking up how community engagement issues 11:00:49 impact us all working 11:00:51 in all the frontiers in high-energy physics. 11:00:53 If we get started I want to recap 11:00:56 our guidelines 11:01:01 . 11:01:02 The DPF core principles and community guidelines for all 11:01:05 of our meetings. 11:01:06 Just to remind you 11:01:08 that by attending this meeting that you agree to 11:01:11 adhere to these. 11:01:12 They are focused on respecting and supporting our 11:01:15 community members and committing to constructive 11:01:17 dialogue and taking initiative for that. 11:01:19 The details of which have been discussed 11:01:24 and are found at the link that you see there. 11:01:25 We invite everyone to invoke these guidelines as needed 11:01:28 when issues come up 11:01:30 and when they do to please contact the convenors and 11:01:33 organizers of the meeting. 11:01:35 In an effort for all of us to look forward to everyone's 11:01:39 voice being heard. 11:01:40 So as I said, thanks so much for coming 11:01:45 to talk about community engagement. 11:01:46 Just a couple of recent brief words 11:01:49 about what this entails 11:01:50 before we get to our presenters and panelists. 11:01:53 Community engagement frontier 11:01:55 really in our description here 11:01:59 has a very important objective 11:02:01 for 11:02:02 (unknown term) 11:02:12 and that is to improve and stain strategic engagement 11:02:15 with our communities in order to draw support strength from 11:02:19 particle physics while playing key roles in seven 11:02:21 these committees. 11:02:22 So both parts of the sentence, there's two aspects 11:02:26 to it. 11:02:27 So first, sustaining strategic engagement with our 11:02:29 communities. 11:02:30 There are several topical groups and community 11:02:32 engagement frontier 11:02:33 , they are shown here applications in industry, 11:02:36 pipeline development, inclusive 11:02:43 and diversity, physical education, public education 11:02:45 and outreach and public policy and government 11:02:47 engagement. 11:02:48 Engagements with our communities – there's two 11:02:50 parts of it. 11:02:51 Engaging within our own community 11:02:54 and then also looking out to the communities where we live 11:02:57 and are a part of. 11:03:01 Half of our topical cute groups, a and I, career 11:03:05 pipeline and physics education are more inward 11:03:07 focused towards what is going on in our community. 11:03:10 Where is the other three are largely directed 11:03:13 at the Duke community is that we are part of and the 11:03:18 broader society. 11:03:19 And in those engagements 11:03:21 there are two aspects we are trying to achieve. 11:03:30 One is to strengthen our own field of possible particle 11:03:34 physics, to make us the best we can be in carrying out our 11:03:38 work in the best way possible. 11:03:40 But also to have real positive impact more broadly 11:03:43 in society all the communities we are a part of. 11:03:47 So that's what all of these efforts are geared around. 11:03:50 So we are going to be talking about these in some detail 11:03:55 over the next hour or so. 11:03:57 One thing I will point out is that we hope that there are 11:04:02 lots of questions and discussions that are inspired 11:04:04 by these, what you're going to hear in this session and 11:04:08 the way we are going to handle questions and 11:04:11 responding and discussing with you is through the 11:04:14 select channel. 11:04:15 So on the page you will find on the community engagement 11:04:19 across the frontier session the Slack channel for this 11:04:22 session. 11:04:23 So we encourage anyone that has a comment or question to 11:04:27 join that channel. 11:04:28 And when we finish this session we have invited all 11:04:32 of the panelists and topical group convenors for the 11:04:34 community engagement frontier to be on their to hold 11:04:37 different discussions with folks. 11:04:38 So please take advantage of that. 11:04:40 All right, with those things underway 11:04:42 I would like to let you know what we are going to do here 11:04:46 now. 11:04:46 We are going to start with about a 50 minute 11:04:49 presentation about community engagement 11:04:55 and a particular example of it. 11:04:57 And then we are going to move to an hour of speaking with 11:05:01 form representatives for each of the frontiers about 11:05:03 community engagement issues that are important in the 11:05:05 context of that specific frontier. 11:05:07 So the first thing is we have invited 11:05:15 Azwinndini Muronga who is serving as a topical group 11:05:17 convened is in public education and outreach 11:05:19 to give us a presentation on what they've been able to 11:05:22 achieve in South Africa on these issues 11:05:25 . 11:05:25 So to give us a model of what we are aiming for 11:05:29 and as an inspiration for all of us of what we can hope 11:05:33 to achieve through this process. 11:05:34 So I'm going to turn over to Azwinndini Muronga 11:05:37 so if you will unmute and get ready 11:05:40 and they will bring up the size for you first things a 11:05:44 lot. 11:05:45 AZWINNDINI MURONGA: Thank you very much 11:05:47 breeze, greetings to everyone around the globe 11:05:50 who is tuning in. 11:06:02 As you introduce me, I'm going to be speaking about 11:06:06 structural changes in support of public engagement with 11:06:08 science in South Africa. 11:06:10 You can go to the next slide, please. 11:06:13 So during this brief time 11:06:16 I will speak about why science engagement matters 11:06:18 for Africa, a brief South African context 11:06:21 for top I would talk about structural changes through 11:06:25 national policy as well as 11:06:26 through institutional 11:06:27 and faculty or develop 11:06:29 the Martello demand meant 11:06:31 to level. 11:06:34 Structural changes at professional society level. 11:06:38 And references that I've given in his presentation 11:06:41 that you might find on the agenda. 11:06:43 You can go to in the excitement please. 11:06:46 -- Slide please. 11:06:51 So why is science engagement important for development in 11:06:54 Africa? 11:06:55 So if you look 11:06:57 , this is just a typical example 11:06:59 . 11:07:00 If you look at this map 11:07:03 which I got from sandwiches a recent map 11:07:06 it shows that about 11:07:08 0.01% 11:07:10 of users are African nationals. 11:07:14 So I think it's a concern for everyone 11:07:17 and the concern is really 11:07:20 in the next life. 11:07:22 If you can go to the next slide. 11:07:25 So current level 11:07:29 about 60% of Africa's publishing is under the age 11:07:32 of 25, 11:07:33 making Africa the world's youngest continent. 11:07:35 The number of youth in Africa 11:07:39 accounts for about 20% of the global youth population 11:07:43 and is predicted to double by 20 11:07:45 and is predicted to double by 2055 11:07:48 from the UN website. 11:07:51 So it's important that we engage with the youth 11:07:55 and engage with the general public 11:07:57 and so that would be one of the biggest motivations 11:08:00 that motivate us to engage 11:08:02 in science engagement matters. 11:08:10 Now coming back to South Africa, if I can give you a 11:08:14 South African context 11:08:15 which motivates why science engagement is important. 11:08:19 So South Africa 11:08:22 is a relatively 11:08:23 young democracy 11:08:26 . 11:08:26 Before 1994 11:08:29 it was a siege Society and apartheid. 11:08:33 And 1960s 11:08:34 to 1980s 11:08:38 it was given time 11:08:40 for the science system itself. 11:08:43 The science system was isolated internationally 11:08:45 and also internally. 11:08:48 But the apartheid ideology 11:08:50 also had huge negative effects 11:08:53 on the state of the South African science system 11:08:56 as a whole. 11:09:00 As an example, there was a creation of historically 11:09:03 black universities and they were known as 11:09:06 Bush colleges. 11:09:09 This led to a different kind of polarization. 11:09:12 So science itself was 11:09:14 not under 11:09:16 a conducive space 11:09:17 . 11:09:22 Things then turned around in 1994 11:09:26 when we had a democracy for top 11:09:29 international isolation 11:09:30 ends 11:09:34 and for the first time we have a Minister of science 11:09:38 and technology. 11:09:39 We started to see growth and strategic plans 11:09:42 around sign systems 11:09:43 . 11:09:44 We started to be involved in big side projects 11:09:47 , namely the 11:09:49 SKA and others. 11:09:52 We had participation as a country 11:09:54 in the 11:09:54 certain science. 11:10:01 Suggested the dawn of democracy, physicist came 11:10:03 together with the help of international 11:10:08 expense and we came together to shape the future of 11:10:12 physics in South Africa was to that was around 2004, 11:10:15 10 years into democracy for stop and that 11:10:18 just like the (unknown term) 11:10:22 came up with 14 recommendations. 11:10:24 All of them are now implement it. 11:10:26 They are related to what we are going to discuss today 11:10:30 which is community engagement. 11:10:32 The first recommendation 11:10:35 , it's about our education system. 11:10:37 Especially physics education. 11:10:40 Going from school level all the way to university level, 11:10:43 we had a strategy for that. 11:10:47 The second one, it speaks about diversity and 11:10:50 education. 11:10:51 One of the particular groups in the CDF. 11:10:54 And the third one is about 11:10:56 career development 11:11:00 . 11:11:00 And the fourth one is about public understanding of 11:11:03 science. 11:11:04 See can see that these recommendations, 11:11:09 not on the appendix but on the understanding on their 11:11:13 own to signal the importance of (inaudible). 11:11:16 So we were not alone 11:11:19 during the dark days. 11:11:21 We had help from international community 11:11:23 and this sign 11:11:24 -- 11:11:27 South African community of scientists. 11:11:29 Here we are looking at a letter written by 11:11:33 then president of 11:11:34 a APS 11:11:35 in 1997 11:11:37 written to a counterpart of South African 11:11:40 society 11:11:44 . 11:11:45 Rising concerns about the issues related to diversity 11:11:47 and inclusion and suggesting recommendations 11:11:50 that 11:11:52 go back now to the US 11:11:54 especially 11:11:56 to the CEF frontier 11:11:58 to look at some of these because they are very much 11:12:02 applicable to particle physics as well. 11:12:04 So in South Africa 11:12:08 we had to effect changes a policy level. 11:12:13 in order for the government government and everyone to 11:12:16 take every thing seriously. 11:12:18 So immediately after democracy 11:12:21 the newly established ministry of science 11:12:24 and technology 11:12:26 started on a process 11:12:28 like the one 11:12:29 that 11:12:31 Snowmass is undertaken 11:12:34 of grafting a white paper. 11:12:38 A white paper in South Africa, it's usually a 11:12:41 government department document 11:12:46 which is aimed at setting the long-term policy 11:12:49 direction for government 11:12:51 to ensure, in this case, the role of science and 11:12:54 technology and innovation in a more prosperous and 11:12:57 inclusive society. 11:12:58 And you will see that in this diagram 11:13:01 I have the white paper which is the policy document was to 11:13:07 the policy document gives conscience that we shall 11:13:09 establish science engagement strategy with a plan 11:13:12 which also necessitates 11:13:13 the change of lesson each 11:13:15 legislature 11:13:16 to complement science engagement. 11:13:20 And here I put some of the 11:13:23 directives 11:13:25 that came out of the white paper. 11:13:31 To say that there is a policy intent to support a 11:13:35 science literate and science away society. 11:13:37 And it calls for a coordinated system 11:13:39 to deal with science engagement in the country. 11:13:42 Not only that the 11:13:43 last policy there, 11:13:45 that the government will fund science engagement. 11:13:49 And here 11:13:52 we are dealing with 11:13:54 an act that has to be changed. 11:13:56 And this is the act 11:13:59 that didn't recognize science engagement before 11:14:01 , he only recognized 11:14:02 research 11:14:03 because it's an act 11:14:07 that is established in a national research foundation. 11:14:10 In the next slide 11:14:14 you will see that everything is underlined, is something 11:14:17 that is new 11:14:18 and under what is new you will see community engagement 11:14:22 and particular science engagement is highlighted 11:14:24 in the legislation. 11:14:26 And now 11:14:28 , 11:14:29 I put out this. 11:14:33 If I go to the National research foundation to apply 11:14:36 for a grant, I cannot succeed without 11:14:39 talking or feeling in the section 11:14:41 on science engagement. 11:14:42 I need to say 11:14:44 what this project has to do with science engagement 11:14:48 or what activities of science engagement. 11:14:50 Then I will have had completed 11:14:52 my grant for the proposal. 11:14:58 And then it does not end of the government, what 11:15:01 about institutions in the work is? 11:15:03 In universities back 11:15:04 a case at hand 11:15:06 is one that I'm involved in 11:15:09 is the national Mandel University. 11:15:10 And if you can move to the next slide, 11:15:13 University 11:15:15 which has discussed 11:15:16 its restructuring, 11:15:18 that said we need 11:15:19 to make sure 11:15:22 the engagement 11:15:24 is put in the universities 11:15:26 president's office. 11:15:28 To make sure that it is important aspect 11:15:31 , 11:15:31 of our life 11:15:33 in a university 11:15:35 that is in service of society. 11:15:37 And therefore it has to have 11:15:39 a portfolio 11:15:40 that is engagement 11:15:41 and its 11:15:42 main 11:15:43 … And 11:15:49 that by the deputy of the University, in this 11:15:52 case the deputy Vice Chancellor designated 11:15:54 for that. 11:15:55 Before it was just been researching Eugene. 11:15:58 Also within the faculty level, 11:15:59 the faculty has to align 11:16:04 . 11:16:05 If the faculty of science needed to be an 11:16:08 engaged university, you see in its mission, 11:16:10 brand, it has to emphasize engagement, it 11:16:13 has to institute structural engagement. 11:16:14 But importantly, 11:16:18 at the centre there is the philosophy of 11:16:21 principal of the faculty of science in the 21st 11:16:24 century. 11:16:24 That emphasizes diversity and inclusion 11:16:26 in science and all its doings 11:16:28 and everyday life. 11:16:30 Next page. 11:16:35 And you can see that this is a faculty if you 11:16:39 look on the left-hand side, that before, 11:16:41 it only emphasized learning and teaching 11:16:43 , research and training. 11:16:45 But now, it realizes that science engagement 11:16:47 is very very important 11:16:49 and it will be treated 11:16:51 in the same footing 11:16:52 with learning and teaching and research 11:16:54 and training. 11:16:57 At the university level, you need to 11:16:59 uplift engagement. 11:17:00 Next slide. 11:17:01 Not only that, 11:17:03 when we conducted the survey 11:17:08 in our topical group, we found that many 11:17:11 people said that there is a lack of incentives 11:17:14 through the structural reforms, when you apply 11:17:17 for promotion, 11:17:18 not only will you check teaching and learning 11:17:20 and research, but we now also check 11:17:23 your sites engagement activities. 11:17:24 Next slide please. 11:17:27 So what about our science 11:17:31 societies like the South African Institute 11:17:33 of physics? 11:17:34 And they also implement structural changes? 11:17:37 Yes. 11:17:40 Our South African Institute of physics, 11:17:42 that received a letter from 11:17:45 (unknown term) in the 1980s, 11:17:51 has implemented the recommendations but also 11:17:53 our own new recommendations. 11:17:54 Including, having to launch 11:17:55 a new outreach strategy. 11:17:59 As you can see, we've also emphasized 11:18:01 high school participation 11:18:04 at Serna because of the structure. 11:18:07 The Latin mass like please. 11:18:13 -- Slide. 11:18:19 You can see we really mean business because we 11:18:23 start all the way from the primary schools to 11:18:26 engage with them in terms of science and 11:18:29 communication, and science education. 11:18:30 But not only 11:18:32 is that important aspect, 11:18:34 we have to remember that Africa 11:18:37 used is 11:18:37 bulging, 11:18:40 and therefore it is important within that 11:18:42 context. 11:18:43 Thank you very much, Grace 11:18:45 for giving me this opportunity 11:18:47 . 11:18:47 -- Grace 11:18:51 to talk about our experiences in South 11:18:53 Africa. 11:18:54 BREESE QUINN: Just so much. 11:18:56 I really hope that everybody was inspired 11:18:58 by what 11:19:01 Azwinndini presented. 11:19:02 About what they were able to it 11:19:05 achieve in South Africa and the accomplishments 11:19:08 they were able to realize. 11:19:11 And to see the kind of things we really hope to 11:19:15 achieve in community engagement through the 11:19:17 SnowMass process. 11:19:18 One aspect of community engagement I want to 11:19:21 highlight before we talk to our panelists, 11:19:23 is that community engagement frontier is 11:19:25 not a in 11:19:28 isolated venture, just a separate community of 11:19:30 folks on the side, 11:19:32 that there are very few of us 11:19:34 in high-energy physics 11:19:35 for which I think 11:19:39 this is the professional work, this 11:19:41 is your day job. 11:19:43 So there are not a whole army of people 11:19:46 to carry out this work of developing these 11:19:49 issues. 11:19:50 So all of us, in high-energy physics, 11:19:53 each one of us, not only has a responsibility 11:19:56 to incorporate 11:19:57 and involve these issues 11:19:59 in your day-to-day work 11:20:01 , and implement them, but also 11:20:03 , it's required 11:20:04 that all of us 11:20:08 contribute efforts to developing these issues 11:20:10 within our community 11:20:11 . 11:20:12 And so, 11:20:14 to speak to that, 11:20:16 the fact that 11:20:17 the impact 11:20:18 of community engagement 11:20:21 are felt in all of the frontiers, and we were 11:20:25 our people in all frontiers to address 11:20:27 them. 11:20:30 We have brought together some 11:20:32 representatives from each of the SnowMass 11:20:34 frontiers to discuss for a few minutes each 11:20:36 some of the particular aspects of community 11:20:39 engagement that are very important for that 11:20:41 specific frontier. 11:20:42 And so, we will start 11:20:44 with the 11:20:44 (Name) 11:20:48 from Fermilab who is serving as a community 11:20:51 engagement applications and 11:20:52 industry Co. 11:20:53 convenors, 11:20:53 as well as a liaison 11:20:56 between the community engagement 11:20:59 frontier and instrumentation frontier. 11:21:00 So (Name), 11:21:03 but I'd like you to talk about if you could, 11:21:06 is this. 11:21:09 We just had a breakout session yesterday on 11:21:12 cross community mobility in (unknown term). 11:21:14 Between 11:21:16 different components of our workforce. 11:21:19 And so the question I want to ask is, 11:21:25 is the PhD degree in high-energy physics the 11:21:28 only way to really make an impact in our field? 11:21:34 There are disparities in career development, 11:21:36 research opportunities, that exist between the 11:21:38 various elements of our high-energy fitness 11:21:40 workforce, engineers, no 11:21:41 technicians, etc., what can be done to reduce 11:21:44 the disparities, 11:21:45 including making sure that everyone in our 11:21:48 community has a chance to progress in the 11:21:51 career and fully participate in the 11:21:53 enterprise? 11:21:53 Please go ahead. 11:21:58 PANELIST: Thanks for the question. 11:21:59 Like you said, in principle, there are 11:22:02 different career tracks that exist 11:22:03 for PhD physicists. 11:22:05 And non-PhD physicists. 11:22:07 For example, known as engineering physicists, 11:22:09 engineers as well as technicians. 11:22:11 In the evaluation criteria for 11:22:12 career progression is also different for each 11:22:15 of these categories, which is great, 11:22:18 there are however, few disparities in career 11:22:21 progression opportunities. 11:22:21 For example, 11:22:22 one of the biggest ones that comes into view, 11:22:25 is 11:22:26 early career awards. 11:22:27 These are restricted to 11:22:29 only people with a PhD degree. 11:22:31 There is no equivalent 11:22:33 early career award 11:22:35 for non-PhD physicists. 11:22:37 Engineers, or technicians. 11:22:39 And furthermore, 11:22:40 if you look at the way 11:22:42 (unknown term) uses 11:22:45 evaluation criteria, for example, 11:22:47 a number of publications, 11:22:50 which again is primarily driven 11:22:51 by PhD physicists, 11:22:52 and you have 11:22:53 patterns, 11:22:58 which is more engineering oriented 11:22:59 which doesn't need a PhD degree, 11:23:02 but you can always see that the number of 11:23:05 publications is much greater than the number 11:23:07 of patents that are held by any lab 11:23:10 on University. 11:23:11 Also, 11:23:16 I think with things like publishing, it also 11:23:19 comes naturally to people with a PhD degree 11:23:21 because it's a part of the training. 11:23:24 This becomes a higher barrier for engineers 11:23:26 and technicians who are generally don't publish. 11:23:29 The work they are doing is research, and it's 11:23:32 worth publishing, but there's no motivation 11:23:34 to publish. 11:23:35 Don't get me wrong, publishing is 11:23:37 encouraged at national labs, 11:23:40 there's a lack of time that spilled in and lack 11:23:43 of training that is associated 11:23:46 with trying to publish. 11:23:48 Hence, 11:23:48 nobody tends to do it. 11:23:52 So there is a trend recently, we have seen a 11:23:55 trend in certain niche areas 11:23:57 given with engineers, more and more engineers 11:23:59 are attending to become PhD engineers as opposed 11:24:02 to just the engineer itself. 11:24:07 So specifically, if you look at the 11:24:10 instrumentation printer, one of the aspects that 11:24:12 we would like to encourage, 11:24:14 is a collaboration with electrical engineering 11:24:16 departments, to collaborate more. 11:24:17 Because 11:24:19 nominal a high-energy physics is 11:24:20 looked at 11:24:21 the physics department 11:24:23 collaboration, and this physics department 11:24:25 is in the school assigns, 11:24:27 versus electrical engineering, 11:24:31 which is the school of engineering, and 11:24:33 therefore trying to make 11:24:35 more PhD as it is useful 11:24:44 because you can leverage the electrical 11:24:46 engineering departments themselves. 11:24:47 But in general, what we have seen is that there 11:24:50 is, there exists 11:24:52 a lack of opportunity for PhD versus non-PhD 11:24:55 holders, and some of the discrepancies 11:24:57 we overcome 11:24:59 by few suggestions that have been provided by 11:25:02 the community, which include 11:25:03 a creating early career awards for engineers and 11:25:06 technicians. 11:25:06 To encourage the research aspect of their 11:25:09 work without the emphasis 11:25:10 on having a PhD to be able to do that. 11:25:14 Then recognition in the field, 11:25:16 it's so important 11:25:17 for creating 11:25:18 networks, 11:25:22 and career progression as well. 11:25:24 And one of the things that the industry does, 11:25:27 which is not very heavily PhD focused, 11:25:31 is doing some things like industrial summits, 11:25:33 forms, 11:25:34 and maybe having some sort of platforms like 11:25:36 that to showcase their work. 11:25:38 For non-PhD degree holders. 11:25:40 That might be another avenue. 11:25:42 And finally, 11:25:45 the last suggestion that has been given, 11:25:50 joint appointments normally exist between 11:25:52 universities and National 11:25:53 labs, and again, which is very much focused 11:25:57 on PhD engineers or PhD physicists, 11:26:00 but creating an equivalent sabbatical 11:26:02 saying with the industry, 11:26:05 could help engineers and technicians and on 11:26:08 PhD holders to get the right training as well as 11:26:11 networking opportunities 11:26:12 to help their career progression. 11:26:14 That's it. 11:26:16 BREESE QUINN: Thank you so much. 11:26:18 Appreciate it. 11:26:19 Next I would like to 11:26:21 move to (Name) 11:26:23 from Alabama, representing the energy 11:26:25 frontier. 11:26:28 He is also serving as a liaison between the 11:26:31 energy frontier and CEF. 11:26:33 (Name), I would like to talk about issues 11:26:36 that are related to the fact that 11:26:38 our energy frontier facilities are 11:26:40 increasingly over as 11:26:41 stated. 11:26:44 And that's where you have to participate if 11:26:47 you are going to be involved. 11:26:49 And there are some impacts with that. 11:26:52 So first, I would like you to talk about how we 11:26:55 manage this impact of 11:26:59 overseas location, on early career physicists 11:27:01 in particular, and then I will have a follow-up 11:27:04 to that. 11:27:05 PANELIST: Thank you Grace and thank you for 11:27:08 having me here. 11:27:09 Indeed, this is a major issue for us. 11:27:12 It's one that I understand very well 11:27:15 both as a PhD student and then as a postdoc 11:27:19 , and actually for to my postdocs is based in 11:27:22 Europe so for a significant period of 11:27:25 time, essentially decade, was living there. 11:27:27 So one of the primary issues here is the cost 11:27:30 of living because especially if you talk 11:27:33 about Switzerland, 11:27:34 it's especially for those members of the 11:27:37 community in their early career stages 11:27:39 where you are not making a significant 11:27:41 salary, that job and the cost of living 11:27:44 is really a significant. 11:27:47 This is further compounded for families. 11:27:50 Especially as those you have a spouse, who 11:27:53 either needs to find a job or 11:27:56 as a career in the United States and can't 11:27:59 take a break, that presents difficulties. 11:28:02 The other part of this is it's challenging to 11:28:05 network. 11:28:06 Something very important, especially 11:28:07 when I'm talking about not networking at the 11:28:10 place where you are, you're in a great 11:28:13 position to do that, but if you want to network 11:28:16 back home, that's a very next job. 11:28:18 Especially as you go up for early career 11:28:21 positions. 11:28:23 So this is something which anecdotally, Craig 11:28:25 COVID, 11:28:26 you might not even be flown out for an 11:28:33 interview if you're based in interview, some 11:28:36 places could or couldn't do that, so that was 11:28:39 potentially one of the issues. 11:28:41 It's a little bit different at the moment. 11:28:44 In terms of managing this, a possible 11:28:46 solution. 11:28:47 Having better support. 11:28:48 One of the ways we've tried to 11:28:51 deal with this is by having the cost of 11:28:54 living adjustment, or COLA. 11:28:55 This is not automatic. 11:28:57 Usually, you get that in return for project 11:28:59 relative to the operations of the 11:29:01 experiment. 11:29:02 So it's not something that is automatic, and 11:29:05 it may not be something which is enough. 11:29:08 To support that early career person 11:29:13 , especially talking about PhD's. 11:29:14 So have a better support for PhD's and postdocs 11:29:17 is very valuable. 11:29:19 Local help abroad, is also 11:29:20 useful in terms of medical, social, spousal 11:29:23 issues. 11:29:24 And having more networking opportunities. 11:29:25 Either virtual or in person would go a long 11:29:28 way, and I would like to highlight I think the 11:29:32 role of (unknown term) in particular. 11:29:34 The Fermilab, I see 11:29:35 other places 11:29:36 similarly, 11:29:39 basically a place 11:29:40 of public 11:29:41 where 11:29:42 students can go 11:29:45 it's an intellectual hub where 11:29:47 where 11:29:51 first this is a community, second there 11:29:54 are ways for you to also engage back home. 11:29:57 So in fact, the Fermilab 11:30:00 (unknown term) is a great program which I 11:30:03 personally also benefit with 11:30:04 which allows you to expend the time and 11:30:12 BREESE QUINN: You mentioned these issues 11:30:14 with particular collaborators 11:30:16 that have restrictions on their ability to travel 11:30:19 back-and-forth. 11:30:19 Another specific community 11:30:21 of our colleagues that falls into that 11:30:24 are those that have positions 11:30:28 at predominantly undergraduate institutions, 11:30:30 that appeal to you later I 11:30:37 is becoming an increasingly popular career path for some 11:30:40 of our folks stop can you speak about how the energy 11:30:44 frontier 11:30:44 in particular is expressing full inclusion of those 11:30:47 colleagues.? 11:30:48 PANELIST: Thanks for bringing up 11:30:52 because of you look at UIs and faculty FPU eyes 11:30:56 that have an important role to play 11:30:59 here because the students at these institutions 11:31:02 may not have exposure 11:31:04 or might not even come in contact with 11:31:07 (unknown term) 11:31:09 so it's an opportunity to engage students that 11:31:12 otherwise would be. 11:31:13 However, 11:31:13 they have an important role by the same role 11:31:17 -- 11:31:18 same time they have a significant 11:31:20 (inaudible) and her 11:31:23 no travel budget. 11:31:25 It puts them at a disadvantage. 11:31:29 For example when you talk about institutions 11:31:33 that grant some travel, it's an issue for some 11:31:36 PIs 11:31:37 in this room. 11:31:41 But they are at a disadvantage here so it's 11:31:44 definitely an issue 11:31:45 and there's lots of anecdotal stories I've heard 11:31:48 from folks as I was gathering feedback 11:31:50 for this topic. 11:31:52 So there are some ideas. 11:31:56 I don't think there are obvious solutions but ideas 11:31:59 on how to make this potentially better. 11:32:02 Some ideas that have been voice were potentially 11:32:05 having the possibility of doing joint supervision of 11:32:07 PhD students and postdocs with larger groups 11:32:10 . 11:32:10 Potentially great immigration 11:32:21 -- integration and a way to deal with cost. 11:32:24 Because part of the experiment is having to 11:32:27 provide money to the experiment but treating the 11:32:30 faculty as 11:32:31 postdocs in the same context of (unknown term) would 11:32:34 alleviate some of this. 11:32:36 Because they wouldn't have a postop base somewhere or 11:32:39 funding for that. 11:32:40 So finding some way to include the faculty from P 11:32:44 you eyes would be huge and important. 11:32:46 At the same time we need to resolve some of these issues 11:32:50 so I want to highlight again the role of the US hubs here. 11:32:55 That allows the faculty to travel, not to Europe for 11:32:58 example but actually also spent time there and get 11:33:01 engaged to some extent that way. 11:33:05 There are a few LOI's that have been submitted, I just 11:33:09 want to mention that is the last thing. 11:33:12 There is a visiting faculty program at Fermilab 11:33:15 especially targets 11:33:15 some of these areas. 11:33:17 Also 11:33:18 progress for community colleges 11:33:25 and underrepresented minorities so I think those 11:33:27 would be important to take a look at. 11:33:30 (reads) ask a lot Sergei. 11:33:34 Next I want to 11:33:36 ring up 11:33:36 (Name) 11:33:40 of which he is serving as a liaison to CEF. 11:33:43 So you're in, 11:33:48 (Name) I have a couple of questions about the 11:33:51 relationship between the accelerated first 11:33:56 frontier industry. 11:33:57 So although developing accelerated specifically for 11:33:59 industrial applications 11:34:01 like security and medicine requires different sets of 11:34:06 standards that we find in our HEP research discovery, 11:34:09 there are some commonalities that exist 11:34:12 and control, feedback, diagnostics etc. 11:34:14 How act can our HEP accelerator facilities 11:34:17 to support 11:34:20 other accelerators in conjunction with our research 11:34:23 and goals to further those relationships? 11:34:25 PANELIST: 11:34:26 Thanks for asking that question and allowing me to 11:34:29 speak here. 11:34:31 So I'm not an industry expert per se, but I been 11:34:35 interesting 11:34:35 -- interacting for the last couple of weeks and talking 11:34:39 to insiders and I think it's clear that everyone wants a 11:34:42 smooth transition of innovation, 11:34:45 from the National labs and academia to the industry. 11:34:51 Integrate way to make sure that the general public and 11:34:54 society is aware of all these accelerated applications to 11:34:57 help benefit them. 11:34:59 They would generate jobs, be healthy industry etc. 11:35:01 At the same time it would ensure 11:35:04 a lot of the hard work and innovations 11:35:07 that are obtained and lost when people retire 11:35:09 or when the project ends. 11:35:13 And so will the industry experts have relayed to me 11:35:19 is that the problem isn't so much with mature accelerated 11:35:23 technology, the industry can handle that very well, 11:35:26 it's with these paradigm shifting technologies. 11:35:28 Like new stuff. 11:35:30 Like 11:35:31 plasma accelerators or flash 11:35:33 were technology. 11:35:35 That's where help or aiding 11:35:37 could make 11:35:40 a big impact in allowing industry to adapt these 11:35:44 technologies. 11:35:44 So few things have been proposed. 11:35:47 I think the first two points maybe the most important one 11:35:51 is, it encouraged 11:35:52 to retake an active role 11:35:54 in high-energy physics 11:35:56 takes an active role in supporting 11:36:02 our need for met things like medical applications, light 11:36:05 sources etc. 11:36:06 By having the scientists demonstrate 11:36:09 these novel tools at their lab 11:36:11 it will go a long way towards 11:36:13 commercialization 11:36:18 because when they see the results, industry will pick 11:36:21 up that interest 11:36:22 . 11:36:23 Results talk more than policy 11:36:25 so that one recommendation. 11:36:27 The other recommendation is related to 11:36:29 the barrier 11:36:31 that exists 11:36:34 for small and midscale companies 11:36:36 dealing with the intellectual property 11:36:44 and the royalties etc. 11:36:46 All of the upper front expenses associated with 11:36:49 working with national labs. 11:36:51 These new accelerated concepts are typically 11:36:54 not converted commercialized by Hugh industry giants like 11:36:57 Google Apple but rather by smaller 11:36:59 technology 11:37:02 enthusiasts who don't have the resources or time for 11:37:06 long negotiations 11:37:06 about contracts and royalties. 11:37:08 So the recommendation is to give them 11:37:13 exclusive license, at little to no cost and involve them 11:37:17 early on 11:37:18 and let them talk about the job and take a risk with them. 11:37:22 I don't know 11:37:24 at the time, those two 11:37:25 small points 11:37:28 is that there is more recommendation between 11:37:35 industry and academia. 11:37:37 Visiting students postdocs and working out the details 11:37:40 of intellectual property as well as making sure the 11:37:43 students are still published 11:37:44 in open access to journals. 11:37:46 So beam time 11:37:47 , where companies can 11:37:49 get beam time focusing less on science but 11:37:53 demonstration, robustness, stability etc. 11:37:54 demonstration, robustness, stability etc. 11:38:00 In the last point is I think scientists should keep 11:38:03 reaching out to industry conferences that are technical 11:38:08 . 11:38:09 For example, the conference of the application of 11:38:11 accelerators research and industry gallery because 11:38:13 scientists are aware of features they have developed. 11:38:16 Polarized beams, (unknown term) capabilities but it 11:38:19 takes 11:38:21 a lot of time for industry to catch up and be aware of 11:38:26 these capabilities. 11:38:26 BREESE QUINN: I think you addressed a good bit of that 11:38:30 that the challenges in the US 11:38:36 a lot of the technologies have been adapted in the labs 11:38:40 of the universities but later on as its commercialized we 11:38:43 don't do such a good job of that in the US and you do a 11:38:49 much better job in Europe. 11:38:50 So we need to strengthen those relationships in the 11:38:53 ways you just mentioned. 11:38:55 So thank you for addressing that. 11:38:57 I appreciate it. 11:38:59 Next I'd like to hear from my representative from Snowmass 11:39:02 career so I'd like to invite Mateja's to come on who is 11:39:06 working closely with S CC and CEF 11:39:09 . 11:39:10 Mateja's who is Brooke from Brookhaven 11:39:13 I'd like to ask you about this question. 11:39:21 High-energy physics has had incredibly good success with 11:39:24 federal government advocacy toward funding support. 11:39:26 Through this particularly this past few years of 11:39:29 Akamai care of. 11:39:30 We've had good success with that. 11:39:32 The folks running that have built 11:39:35 an extremely efficient 11:39:36 and effective 11:39:37 enterprise 11:39:38 to make that happen. 11:39:41 But the early career community 11:39:45 seems to be quite passionate 11:39:48 about advocating for other issues that are important 11:39:53 for the members of our community besides just the 11:39:56 funding support. 11:39:57 So is there a way to systematically address that 11:40:00 problem 11:40:02 and perhaps do advocacy for other issues and what are the 11:40:05 challenges to face there? 11:40:07 PANELIST: Hi. 11:40:08 Thank you for the question. 11:40:10 Let me try to give 11:40:15 a little more context about what we mean will be talking 11:40:19 about other issues in non-funding relation 11:40:21 -- related faculty and why we think the early career a 11:40:25 passion about it. 11:40:26 As was just mentioned we are all aware or should be of the 11:40:31 efforts of restriction asking for support and funding. 11:40:35 It's the historical success in there and very much closer 11:40:39 related to the Snowmass process. 11:40:40 As the (unknown term) mostly guides the talking points 11:40:44 and that conversation when it comes to funding. 11:40:46 But is that enough? 11:40:51 There are many different policies that affect AGP, not 11:40:54 just as a structural way but directly affecting people's 11:40:57 lives. 11:40:58 a really example 11:40:59 . 11:41:01 A really easy example to give 11:41:03 is 11:41:09 (inaudible) adding stress and out to the lives of our 11:41:12 colleagues that don't happen to be US citizens and that's 11:41:16 a big chunk of us. 11:41:17 That's just an example we just heard 11:41:22 about how governmental faculties are important to 11:41:24 shape the future of physics together with a more 11:41:27 inclusive society or given these issues of trying to 11:41:31 insert engineers and people that are not necessarily 11:41:33 physicists 11:41:34 into the funding agencies 11:41:35 point of view. 11:41:37 These are all related to 11:41:40 non-funding related faculty. 11:41:46 So as a community we have been having these discussions 11:41:50 about our climate and 11:41:51 systematic issues in the field 11:41:53 and it seems to be clear 11:41:55 for at least a part of the early career community 11:41:58 that there is too much at stake not to speak on it. 11:42:06 So we need additional faculty on behalf of our 11:42:10 climate goals in the community rather than just 11:42:12 our science goals. 11:42:13 Actually to address the question directly, I think 11:42:16 the answer is no. 11:42:18 We do not have a way to systematically address this 11:42:21 problem. 11:42:22 But the Snowmass 11:42:23 is exactly the venue we can use to stop this description. 11:42:27 That was brought up by members of the community to us 11:42:31 and when I say asked 11:42:35 us I mean the early career Snowmass community that has 11:42:38 been organized. 11:42:39 We put together an LOI in the team 11:42:42 and that was 11:42:43 funded by a town hall 11:42:45 organized by a government outreach program. 11:42:51 You can find the yellow eye and the town hall, it's 11:42:55 recorded and if you are interested I can put the link 11:42:58 on slack. 11:42:59 Those lead to interesting discussions where we talked 11:43:02 about the faculties of this kind of 11:43:05 advocacy. 11:43:05 We need to be careful not to 11:43:08 harm the funding related 11:43:09 faculty that we already know 11:43:11 and there is a structure behind 11:43:13 that actually we need to learn from it. 11:43:16 And maybe expand it 11:43:18 . 11:43:19 But try very hard not to harm them. 11:43:22 What seems to be the best way to go right now 11:43:26 is to write a white paper that can turn into real 11:43:30 recommendations in the final Snowmass report. 11:43:32 For that we need communication with experts. 11:43:35 We are good at doing this but we are getting 11:43:38 into 11:43:39 a somewhat more dangerous field so we need experts 11:43:42 for this. 11:43:45 And at the same time, we really need some input 11:43:48 and some work from the whole community. 11:43:51 This is not an easy task 11:43:53 and I completely understand if it sounds like 11:43:55 a lot of things that may be thinking 11:43:59 that are included in this non-funding faculty are 11:44:02 controversial but that's exactly why 11:44:04 you should add your voice to the discussion. 11:44:07 If you agree with me, 11:44:08 if you are passionate about these different things 11:44:14 please join your voice to us. 11:44:17 If you don't, also please bring your point of view to 11:44:20 this discussion. 11:44:21 Because we need a cultural change in the field. 11:44:25 That's something we can't do without the participation of 11:44:28 the early career community. 11:44:29 So if this is interesting to you, away to join 11:44:33 – you can learn how to join our discussions and 11:44:37 conversations in tomorrow's early career report. 11:44:40 There will be a lot of links and specifications about the 11:44:44 different initiatives that the group is trying to push 11:44:47 including the non-funding related faculty efforts. 11:44:51 I understandably don't have time to attend all of the 11:44:55 meetings and town halls 11:44:56 but any opinions, ideas or help you can give is very 11:45:00 important. 11:45:01 They are all big pushes, even if it's 11:45:03 proof reading something, that's a lot. 11:45:07 If you're a PI, please incentivize the early career 11:45:11 people around you to enjoy and participate 11:45:13 because we can't do much if the early career is not there 11:45:17 . 11:45:18 We believe that this type of effort and initiative 11:45:21 of trying to speak up 11:45:23 and push for things that are related to the climate of 11:45:27 thus as a community. 11:45:29 It's a momentum that will come from early career more 11:45:32 than anything. 11:45:33 BREESE QUINN: Thanks a lot, really appreciate it. 11:45:37 Another issue that 11:45:40 is being dealt with in community engagement is 11:45:43 diversity in our field. 11:45:44 We know there's really check 11:45:50 challenges for. 11:45:51 I want to bring on Devon Walker from Dartmouth 11:45:54 to represent the theory frontier. 11:45:56 He is serving as our theory frontier liaison 11:45:58 . 11:45:59 Devon, what I like you to talk about is 11:46:02 the leaky pipeline 11:46:06 which is often used as an epic explanation to use the 11:46:09 two explain the lack of diversity. 11:46:12 We know that physics is probably the least successful 11:46:16 of all the sciences in this regard. 11:46:18 HDP is not at the top of the list within physics 11:46:22 and within HDP 11:46:23 even 11:46:24 this seems to especially 11:46:28 been an issue in the more specialized or exclusive 11:46:31 components of our field 11:46:33 such as theory or accelerate. 11:46:36 So I'd like you to talk about how the leaky pipeline 11:46:40 , from this perspective of the theorists 11:46:43 can be remedied to address diversity. 11:46:45 exposure back home. 11:46:52 It was this issue 11:46:53 that was really highlighted 11:46:56 in the theory frontier really 11:47:00 views diversity is critical to sustaining 11:47:02 vibrant physics programs. 11:47:03 So this can be summarized 11:47:05 by the 11:47:06 talk for diversity. 11:47:07 In this talk, 11:47:12 I've met a lot of great physicists historically, 11:47:15 but there's no-one waving them 11:47:16 a great physicist or good physicist. 11:47:22 There's just some set of towels that each 11:47:24 person has that they are great at, 11:47:27 and each person is different. 11:47:29 There are different ways to be great. 11:47:31 And he made the argument that we really need 11:47:34 diversity, of ideas, thoughts and creativity. 11:47:36 In diverse people to answer these challenges. 11:47:39 And this was highlighted by recent publication 11:47:42 in the proceedings of the National Academy of 11:47:45 Sciences, the diversions diversity and innovation 11:47:47 paragraphs. 11:47:48 Some Stanford side to show the connection 11:47:50 between diversity, 11:47:52 people, and making really wonderful 11:47:53 innovations 11:47:54 . 11:47:55 There are more things to this paper, 11:47:57 I can highlight, 11:47:58 but I want to get onto the other 11:48:01 problems. 11:48:07 In our theory frontier discussions, we 11:48:09 viewed 11:48:09 diversity as the likely 11:48:10 pipeline solutions. 11:48:12 We viewed them as 11:48:13 macroscopic and 11:48:14 microscopic. 11:48:20 I'm going to say that whatever to tell you 11:48:23 this. 11:48:23 By my perspective because I'm African 11:48:26 American. 11:48:26 So, microscopic. 11:48:27 This viewpoint can be summarized by 11:48:29 (Name), 11:48:30 in physics today, 11:48:31 years ago, 11:48:34 she gave for explicit 11:48:36 things 11:48:38 that established scientists can do 11:48:41 to really put diversity and 11:48:42 microscopically. 11:48:44 So she wrote, 11:48:47 quote let me be clear, 11:48:48 if you're 11:48:51 career is established, you are not making 11:48:53 explicit and continual effort to encourage 11:48:55 all young physicists, 11:48:58 2, create a welcoming 11:49:00 climate in your department, and three, 11:49:02 promoting 11:49:04 the hiring of diverse faculty members 11:49:06 . 11:49:07 You are part of the problem. 11:49:10 " So she pushed her and said you are part of the 11:49:14 problem. 11:49:15 She emphasized that this is a critical civil 11:49:18 rights issue for our field. 11:49:20 She also goes on and says in addition to her 11:49:24 offering encouragement and mentorship, you 11:49:26 should be ensuring racial and gender 11:49:31 your diaper stands for Christmas, job 11:49:33 shortlists, and making increased diversity- 11:49:35 priority and faculty hiring. 11:49:40 The all that, our discussions also talked 11:49:43 about accountability. 11:49:43 So, there are a lot of people who have been 11:49:47 working on making pipelines. 11:49:50 To varying degrees. 11:49:52 So how can we have a bit of accountability? 11:49:56 So maybe it seems like a good idea versus assist 11:50:00 the partner with minority professional 11:50:01 organizations 11:50:03 and the National Society of Black 11:50:05 physicists. 11:50:05 We apply for grants, 11:50:09 we say what we want to do, in terms of our 11:50:13 research, and then after the grant ends, with go 11:50:16 and write and after grant report. 11:50:18 So the idea is, what can happen is, we can make a 11:50:22 pledge to let's say the National Society of 11:50:25 Black physicists, you make a pledge of the 11:50:28 beginning of the year, and then later, the 11:50:32 (unknown term) can see how the pledge went. 11:50:35 And they keep records, give awards, whatever 11:50:38 else, but they really keep records. 11:50:40 This can be a really positive way 11:50:42 , that systematic change can occur. 11:50:44 And I think this was 11:50:46 , part of this was mentioned and 11:50:49 highlighted by our first speaker. 11:50:50 Beyond this, personally, is something that I 11:50:53 always do 11:50:54 for the past seven or eight years, I've held a 11:50:57 Google form. 11:50:58 BREESE QUINN: Hold on a minute 11:51:00 . 11:51:02 PANELIST: Almost done. 11:51:03 I'm almost done. 11:51:07 Older physicists were talking with younger 11:51:09 physicists. 11:51:09 Sustained and 11:51:12 Cajun. 11:51:13 And this worked. 11:51:14 Some of our first people have gotten tier 1 11:51:17 tenure-track positions. 11:51:19 So my point is sustain engagement. 11:51:21 As for macroscopic, I'm a bit out of 11:51:24 time. 11:51:24 The theory really wants us to 11:51:26 encourage theory and complete 11:51:28 self-assessment 11:51:28 , 11:51:30 and for example, 11:51:32 theorists or anybody else 11:51:35 can work in their departments to form 11:51:37 bridge partnerships, 11:51:38 or if you haven't already done so, 11:51:42 spearhead the application to become 11:51:44 involved. 11:51:44 Again, the research challenges for us right 11:51:47 now, are immense, 11:51:50 there's a lot of physics we have to 11:51:53 accomplish. 11:51:54 When a diversity of ideas, thought, 11:51:56 creativity, and people to enter these 11:51:58 challenges. 11:51:59 Thank you. 11:52:00 BREESE QUINN: Thank you, appreciate it. 11:52:02 Amy Roberts from Denver, if you come on 11:52:05 now, Amy is 11:52:06 one of the co-convenors 11:52:09 of one of the computational frontier 11:52:11 topical groups. 11:52:12 Just a quick follow-up 11:52:15 to the previous issues, if you will, 11:52:17 , 11:52:21 there are diversity issues that are 11:52:23 associated with technologies and tools. 11:52:25 So, 11:52:27 we already know that there are barriers 11:52:30 distant 11:52:33 proportionately underrepresented 11:52:34 minorities due to gatekeeping effects. 11:52:40 And how will the computing frontier 11:52:42 ensure that new technologies that come 11:52:44 up with can you in tools and such, when 11:52:48 appropriate, are integrated into the field 11:52:50 so when they do, they don't suffer the way 11:52:53 that other existing technologies like 11:52:55 grid-based analysis frameworks have in this 11:52:57 respect? 11:52:58 PANELIST: Great, thanks. 11:52:59 OK, 11:53:01 so I think actually 11:53:03 , 11:53:06 the thing I want to briefly explain 11:53:08 is how gatekeeping happens. 11:53:11 So fiercely in the computational frontier. 11:53:13 So, 11:53:15 there are a lot of different ways it can 11:53:18 happen. 11:53:21 But we are really susceptible to it 11:53:23 because often in the computational frontier, 11:53:25 we have technologies, 11:53:28 that are integral and mandatory parts of any 11:53:31 analysis workflow, 11:53:32 and when those 11:53:36 , and knowledge about how to use those is 11:53:39 often stored 11:53:42 in people. 11:53:43 And usually, there are very few people who have 11:53:46 all the knowledge that you need. 11:53:48 So you have, if you have a small set of people 11:53:52 who inadvertently become gatekeepers. 11:53:53 So if you don't have access to this people, 11:53:56 or those people don't like you, 11:53:59 or for whatever reason, you have a hard time 11:54:02 community with those people, 11:54:03 then you can suddenly be in a situation where 11:54:06 you can't do science because you can't submit 11:54:09 jobs or checkout software, 11:54:11 or you can't make the request to the right 11:54:14 person to get the processing done. 11:54:16 So this is where we end up with gatekeeping. 11:54:19 Onto my answer, 11:54:21 there are three things to keep in mind here. 11:54:24 One of them is that 11:54:27 if we approach this as an individual problem, I 11:54:30 think the answer is that we will not be able to 11:54:34 improve the situation substantially. 11:54:36 So I think one of the things in the (unknown 11:54:39 term) report, that is really 11:54:41 appropriate to think about here, 11:54:43 is the idea that one individual 11:54:45 with an 11:54:46 a collaboration, or small set of people 11:54:49 working, 11:54:52 is not a sustainable solution to this problem. 11:54:56 What we really need to think about is 11:54:59 how can we have an investment field wind 11:55:02 . 11:55:02 So this is all of our problem, 11:55:05 and I think that this is 11:55:07 a major point dose that I would like to make, 11:55:10 we need to think about how we can change 11:55:14 the reward structures, 11:55:15 and make sure that this kind of work 11:55:17 is really valued. 11:55:20 We can say that is value, and we know that 11:55:23 it should be fine, but when it comes to tenure 11:55:27 criteria, is not necessarily valued. 11:55:28 When it's when it comes to 11:55:30 grant reviews, it's not necessarily valued. 11:55:33 For that reason, there is not 11:55:35 always money available for this type of thing. 11:55:37 So the major thing I would suggest, and again, 11:55:41 as several other panelists have 11:55:42 mentioned, the SnowMass process is a good venue 11:55:45 for this, but we really need to think about 11:55:48 how as a field, we can make sure 11:55:51 that work on this is really supportive. 11:55:54 Because I think that has to be in place for 11:55:57 sustainable 11:55:58 and continued effort to happen. 11:56:00 So it's not really fair to ask the people 11:56:03 who are often most invested in moving 11:56:05 forward on this, 11:56:08 scientists who are already 11:56:09 underrepresented, to take a hit. 11:56:11 And I think there are ways we can fix this. 11:56:15 And there are several LOI's that talk about 11:56:17 this. 11:56:18 Improving tenure criteria, and pushing 11:56:20 for tenant criteria that 11:56:23 the value this, and grant evaluation 11:56:25 criteria, making changes within the field so this 11:56:28 effort is funded, I think all of these 11:56:31 avenues that are really addressed, 11:56:36 and I think are something that we need 11:56:39 to consider. 11:56:40 So I'm really hopeful that we can work on how 11:56:43 to improve this as a community, and make sure 11:56:47 the rewards really line up. 11:56:48 Through this process. 11:56:50 This back there was a second question we don't 11:56:53 have time for now, I want to ask Amy if you 11:56:57 would 11:56:57 be available in the select channel to 11:57:00 address this specifically, we've 11:57:01 gotten several LOI is about education and 11:57:03 training needs within (unknown term), and 11:57:05 computing is one of the areas so, in the slack 11:57:09 Channel after, could you talk about examples 11:57:11 such as (Name) and the software mom, and 11:57:14 address the training needs that we need to 11:57:17 pay attention to four 11:57:19 wider training in these 11:57:22 specific targeted areas and how to address those 11:57:25 challenges. 11:57:26 PANELIST: OK thank you. 11:57:27 BREESE QUINN: OK, thanks a lot. 11:57:29 Now I would like to 11:57:31 introduce Sophie Middleton 11:57:32 from Caltech 11:57:34 who is serving as a liaison 11:57:36 between the community engagement frontier 11:57:38 and the rare 11:57:41 imprecision frontier. 11:57:42 Sophie, 11:57:49 could you tell us a little bit about what is 11:57:52 being done to include early career help 11:57:55 collaborators 11:57:55 in your frontier, 11:57:58 both now in the SnowMass process and 11:58:00 following 11:58:01 if we move forward with our research program? 11:58:08 And as an early career scientists, are the 11:58:11 specific things you would like the senior 11:58:13 folks in your frontier to know? 11:58:15 PANELIST: Thank you for that question. 11:58:17 I think it's important that we encourage 11:58:20 early career people to be actively involved 11:58:22 with the SnowMass process, after all, the 11:58:25 follow-up to SnowMass and what comes after, 11:58:27 will shape their careers. 11:58:29 It's essential they get their voices heard. 11:58:34 SnowMass as well, offers a great 11:58:36 opportunity to learn about experiments 11:58:39 and materials you are not part of, like over 11:58:42 the last few days, community planning 11:58:45 meeting has been a great exercise to see the 11:58:47 panoramic view of how energy physics 11:58:50 experiments 11:58:50 and all the saints. 11:58:52 So it's gratefully clear people attending stalks. 11:58:55 Our frontier is doing fairly well in that 11:58:57 sense. 11:58:58 I know that even today, there are many 11:59:01 participants were early career people and there 11:59:03 has been a week. 11:59:05 The convenors do an exceptionally good job, 11:59:08 in the town hall, in the parallels, we had many 11:59:11 speakers who were early career people. 11:59:13 Including myself, and we also had some young 11:59:16 students who presented, and for them, for some 11:59:19 of those people it was their first time 11:59:22 to speak as either collaborations, and that 11:59:24 was great to be given that opportunity. 11:59:27 And hopefully that will continue throughout the 11:59:29 SnowMass process. 11:59:30 In terms of yellow eyes, we had many that 11:59:33 had early career cosigners or authors, 11:59:35 which was great, was great to see the 11:59:38 excitement. 11:59:39 And we also had many, it one thing that was very 11:59:43 (inaudible) to me was where I worked, the 11:59:46 spokespeople asked the early career people 11:59:48 asked us to write the LOI and that 11:59:51 created a lot of excitement in 11:59:53 a lot of excitement to be involved in that. 11:59:57 We also have short of leadership cohort of 12:00:00 about 13 people, 12:00:01 in the SnowMass, and these people act as 12:00:04 liaisons so we have seven subgroups in our 12:00:07 subgroups and may ask as liaisons. 12:00:09 And we relay that information 12:00:11 back to their individual experiments. 12:00:13 And 12:00:14 on the 12:00:15 (unknown term) 12:00:19 front, we had a joint election to 12:00:22 elect representatives to that group of them is 12:00:24 communicate the information 12:00:26 in the Khmers back to them, and these people 12:00:30 also attend 12:00:34 the convenor's meetings. 12:00:35 Obviously I'm one of those people as well who 12:00:38 is on a group of 13. 12:00:41 And that's been a great opportunity to be part 12:00:44 of that. 12:00:45 I do think it's important obviously this 12:00:47 is a lot of momentum, I think it's important we 12:00:51 harness that momentum and we keep 12:00:53 communication channels open between the early 12:00:55 career people in the senior collaborators 12:00:57 that we managed to forge these links over the 12:01:00 last months, and hopefully we can 12:01:02 continue that, and hopefully after SnowMass 12:01:04 as well,. 12:01:06 In the network of early career people that's 12:01:08 been brought together by the SnowMass process, on 12:01:11 slack, sometimes, especially in our 12:01:13 frontier where there are smaller experiments, you 12:01:15 might be part of a small group of early career 12:01:19 people, and it's great to see the entire 12:01:22 community out there as well. 12:01:23 I think also it's that we continue to combat 12:01:26 this bias where the same experts always give 12:01:29 talks at conferences and summers does, and we 12:01:32 encourage those people, there experts. 12:01:34 But to encourage those people to nominate 12:01:36 junior collaborators in future conferences and 12:01:38 in future seminars, and in that way, we give 12:01:42 those people a chance to speak and get a platform 12:01:45 and exposure. 12:01:46 But also, it changes the perception of the field 12:01:49 as well to external people who like the 12:01:56 And yet, 12:02:01 was there a second part of the question? 12:02:04 I forgotten. 12:02:05 BREESE QUINN: There is a second thing I would like 12:02:09 some of the other frontiers to respond to as well on the 12:02:13 Slack discussion immediately following related to this. 12:02:15 That is that there seems to be 12:02:18 very low early career involvement 12:02:19 from specific frontiers. 12:02:27 The ones that come to mind our theory, accelerator, 12:02:30 underground in particular. 12:02:31 This very low participation from those. 12:02:33 So representatives of those frontiers 12:02:35 I would really appreciate if you joined the Slack channel 12:02:39 and addressed what you think is causing the participation 12:02:42 – low participation in what you are doing to 12:02:45 minimize that first so I asked people to 12:02:50 take part look for that in the Slack discussion later. 12:02:54 Thanks so much, Sophie. 12:02:56 Appreciate it. 12:02:57 Claire Lee from Fermilab who is serving as the liaison 12:03:02 between the CEF and the (unknown term) frontier. 12:03:05 Claire, what I like you to talk about 12:03:08 is being a representative of the neutrino community 12:03:10 we are definitely moving into the era were neutrino 12:03:14 is going to be representing the flagship US-based 12:03:17 (unknown term) for some time to come. 12:03:26 With that being the case the neutrino frontier will 12:03:29 therefore bear quite a large fraction of the response will 12:03:32 at a four HTP engagement with the general outcome. 12:03:35 The media and so forth. 12:03:37 So can you discuss the plans or strategies that your 12:03:41 frontier specifically is developing to take on that 12:03:44 role? 12:03:44 PANELIST: Thanks very much for allowing me to be here. 12:03:48 Of course I don't need to tell anybody here why the 12:03:52 public engagement is important but it certainly 12:03:54 going to be and (unknown term) are going to start 12:03:58 around 2026 or no or so and going to run into 2030s or so. 12:04:04 It's time to keep people excited about the projects we 12:04:08 are doing and keep up are focused on the fact we really 12:04:12 should keep supporting these physics projects throughout 12:04:15 the country. 12:04:16 I'm pleased to say that if you look at the public 12:04:19 engagement that is already being done by labs and 12:04:23 experiments throughout, especially with respect to 12:04:25 the neutrino frontier. 12:04:26 For example Fermilab and (unknown term) and the LBNF 12:04:29 and Eun Mack experiments have good social media 12:04:33 , Facebook, Twitter and all of these things. 12:04:36 It's great to see and social media is a fantastic way 12:04:40 to get out into the community, especially with 12:04:43 younger generations. 12:04:46 The labs as well offer lab tours in non-COVID times of 12:04:50 course, and special events. 12:04:55 Sofa has their neutrino day every year. 12:04:58 They have public lectures, Fermilab has our gallery. 12:05:00 There's a science Centre as well for there's a lot of 12:05:04 YouTube videos I know in order Mac has 12:05:07 YouTube videos on all aspects of physics not just 12:05:10 read neutrino related. 12:05:12 There are podcasts available. 12:05:13 The JUDE: Project a couple of years agoo 12:05:16 put together 12:05:17 pictures of DUNE 12:05:22 who tried to show people who are working as part of the 12:05:26 collaboration. 12:05:27 Not only from a physics perspective but what they do 12:05:31 in everyday life. 12:05:32 There's also symmetry magazine which is another 12:05:34 public engagement channel 12:05:35 with great public articles and videos 12:05:38 and things as well for 12:05:39 . 12:05:40 So this is nice to see 12:05:44 and it's very encouraging but if you look at it 12:05:49 it's also very, I guess the word that comes to mind is 12:05:53 somewhat passive because what we are doing 12:05:56 is we are putting out information 12:05:58 for people that are already interested. 12:06:01 So we are having tours for people that are already 12:06:04 interested 12:06:06 in coming to us, coming to the tours, coming to the 12:06:10 labs, coming to the lectures, going to the internet sites. 12:06:13 We are relying on the other people to drive their 12:06:17 interaction. 12:06:18 I think we really need to 12:06:20 take a careful look at this and shift focus somewhat 12:06:32 because what we need to ask is, why should people care 12:06:36 about and support these projects in the US? 12:06:39 Why neutrino? 12:06:40 Why the USA? 12:06:41 Why should people care about this? 12:06:43 There was an interesting study done a couple of months 12:06:47 ago about the perception of physics and science through 12:06:50 the American public. 12:06:51 One of the things that came out of this was that the 12:06:55 public tend to equate science with hope. 12:06:58 That's actually really lovely but also if you think about 12:07:01 it, it's also very pragmatic because what are they hoping 12:07:05 for? 12:07:06 They are hoping for in some way that their lives are 12:07:09 going to be changed. 12:07:11 Now, the frontiers may have much easier ways 12:07:19 of looking at how their frontier is changing. 12:07:22 For example, the energy frontier can talk about 12:07:25 accelerators in hospitals and the neutrino frontier may be 12:07:28 a little bit more difficult. 12:07:30 BREESE QUINN: A few more seconds. 12:07:32 PANELIST: So it's very important to focus on but one 12:07:36 of the things I want to end up by saying that I found 12:07:40 really nice is I've heard that in South Dakota, the lab 12:07:44 in South Dakota, has really formed some wonderful 12:07:47 relationships with the surrounding community. 12:07:49 The community takes great pride in the lab 12:07:52 and what is going on there. 12:07:54 They have souvenirs in restaurants and shops 12:07:57 that you can buy if you visit and I think this is the 12:08:01 type of thing that we really need to focus on. 12:08:05 We need to go down to the lab level and look at the 12:08:09 surrounding area and go out to the people more actively 12:08:13 and get the community really excited and to really take 12:08:16 pride in what is being done right there with them. 12:08:20 I think that is maybe the thing that we can focus on 12:08:24 , we can look at going out to community colleges nearby, we 12:08:28 can go to music festivals. 12:08:30 There was a letter of intent on that. 12:08:33 We can really work on taking a step outside and may be 12:08:35 early career people themselves, and see in 12:08:37 this frontier, you can get these opportunities 12:08:40 to take these leading roles. 12:08:42 BREESE QUINN: Thank you so much for that. 12:08:44 And I also like to invite you to the 12:08:47 selected channel to possibly address this 12:08:50 other question, and that is, it goes back to the 12:08:53 earliest talk, big experiments like doing 12:08:55 our global endeavours and portrayed it 12:08:57 diversity in our field, but in reality, 12:09:00 often times it doesn't reality that 12:09:03 penned out that wake respect to developing 12:09:05 countries and colleagues in those areas. 12:09:08 We generally participate just on 12:09:09 individual levels 12:09:10 , as opposed to being very involved in driving 12:09:13 the science of the project. 12:09:15 So, these projects really have to bridge 12:09:17 that gap. 12:09:20 If you could possibly discuss on this like to 12:09:23 know what efforts are being undertaken to 12:09:26 release further incorporate folks from 12:09:28 those countries, that would be fantastic. 12:09:30 PANELIST: Sure.! 12:09:31 And as a follow-up to this public education, 12:09:34 outreach, BREESE QUINN: 12:09:35 I would like to invite (Name) on 12:09:37 , 12:09:39 who's going to be representing the cosmic 12:09:42 frontier. 12:09:42 As 12:09:45 liaison to that frontier as well as a 12:09:48 co-convenor of our public education. 12:09:50 Toggle group. 12:09:50 Topical group. 12:09:56 As neutrinos taking on that mantle, the cosmic 12:09:59 frontier has always had a special 12:10:08 due to the fascination the public has with it 12:10:11 and how inspired daily blog with the cosmos. 12:10:14 What can we do to make changes in physics 12:10:17 education to capitalize on that, and take that 12:10:20 interest to keeping students connected 12:10:24 to (unknown term) and because we are frontier 12:10:26 in particular? 12:10:27 Thanks. 12:10:28 PANELIST: Thank you for the question. 12:10:30 And thank you for Clara for addressing a lot of 12:10:34 the subjects that I would also like to 12:10:37 address. 12:10:38 Concerning the cosmic frontier, it's clear 12:10:41 that from the early charm, a lot of young 12:10:44 people 12:10:45 are captured by the imagination of the 12:10:48 universe. 12:10:48 But somehow, 12:10:50 in the schooling system, 12:10:53 this is not sustained and is not fed. 12:10:58 Until rather late. 12:11:01 When they may go to college 12:11:04 or go into a PhD program. 12:11:09 So the question is, how to sustain 12:11:11 and feed 12:11:12 this imagination 12:11:13 with young people. 12:11:17 And I think that the cosmic frontier 12:11:19 plays a very special role there 12:11:21 because 12:11:23 these are some of the big questions that 12:11:25 people ask 12:11:26 maybe at least as much as particle physics 12:11:30 or the like. 12:11:32 Also, 12:11:36 in the cosmic frontier for example, cosmic rays, 12:11:41 you have great demonstrators, and their 12:11:43 great experiments you can do with simple 12:11:46 materials. 12:11:46 And so it lends itself quite suitably 12:11:49 for outreach and also for education. 12:11:51 And all sorts of ages. 12:11:53 And I think we should profit more from that. 12:11:56 Now I would like to make a comparison 12:11:59 for particles to visit situation 12:12:01 where we have a number of programs 12:12:03 that engage 12:12:06 for example with high school teachers, 12:12:08 in the (unknown term) 12:12:12 and the international master classes from 12:12:14 (unknown term), and dark matter today, 12:12:16 and international cosmic ray day, 12:12:20 but somehow for the cosmic frontier, 12:12:23 this is less well organized. 12:12:25 There are a couple of ideas, 12:12:30 and (Name) and (Name) pointed me to some of 12:12:33 these initiatives. 12:12:34 But there is still in the infancy. 12:12:36 So that may have to be developed. 12:12:41 In the community will have to play a big role 12:12:44 in developing these things. 12:12:45 So I'm actually looking forward to a white paper 12:12:49 concerning the subject. 12:12:54 That's it, 12:12:57 what can facilitate this? 12:12:59 Is to have programs which are like 12:13:02 (unknown term) but also focusing 12:13:04 on the more cosmic questions. 12:13:06 That would really help. 12:13:08 The other thing that would help, 12:13:10 is 12:13:12 (unknown term) is very much centred 12:13:15 on Fermilab to have this type of activity 12:13:18 with high school teachers spread much 12:13:20 more distributed 12:13:21 over the entire United States, 12:13:23 and that also 12:13:24 includes the cosmic frontier. 12:13:26 And then I cannot help 12:13:28 … BREESE QUINN: 12:13:31 Just a few more seconds. 12:13:33 We have a hard deadline at 12:13:35 12:15. 12:13:36 PANELIST: I can't help giving a 12:13:38 European perspective. 12:13:39 In the European 12:13:42 particle physics strategy update, it 12:13:44 actually calls 12:13:45 for the funding agency 12:13:46 to make sure 12:13:48 that in grants, 12:13:51 there is a structural component, small 12:13:53 component for this type of outreach. 12:13:58 So that we can mobilize the entire community 12:14:01 and helping these initiatives 12:14:03 and I think that is important. 12:14:05 BREESE QUINN: 12:14:06 Thank you. 12:14:08 PANELIST: Thank you. 12:14:10 Respect thank you I really appreciate it. 12:14:15 BREESE QUINN: I want to thank all the 12:14:18 participants in the session 12:14:19 for taking the time to explain what's going on 12:14:23 in your frontiers, and to get everybody excited 12:14:25 about what's going on. 12:14:27 I hope that everybody has seen that CEF 12:14:30 community engagement is very important. 12:14:32 Impacts all of us no matter what 12:14:34 frontier we are in. 12:14:36 And we all have a responsibility not only 12:14:39 to implement, 12:14:39 cf. 12:14:40 ideas and values in our work, 12:14:44 but also to actively contribute to the 12:14:46 development of that work if it is going to get 12:14:50 done. 12:14:51 I'd like to say that if you are involved in any 12:14:54 way in SnowMass, you should be involved 12:14:57 actively in at least two topical groups. 12:14:59 One being the topical group representing your 12:15:02 primary area of research, and wine, pick 12:15:04 a CEF topical group to make contributions to 12:15:07 because all of us have to make that happen. 12:15:10 So, I invite you to do that, and just looking 12:15:14 forward to the rest of the day, I want to point 12:15:18 out this, that the conversations that we've 12:15:20 started here, 12:15:21 are going to continue on this slack channel, 12:15:25 web address, so please join Mac 12:15:27 and they Q&A