15:00:42 Interesting.
15:00:43 Okay, Look, let me try to share my screen again. Looks like we're recording now share.
15:00:53 So, let me start the session, each remind myself will lead based on request by EF convenience. So, it will be on my joint discussion was excited for here.
15:01:07 I would remind you that we had the first session yesterday which was covering me on collider studies.
15:01:14 Today we will be talking mainly about elect president collectors and drone colliders, and tomorrow at the same time for the discussion of advanced accelerator, as well as the review of various collider options.
15:01:27 So for today.
15:01:28 We starting from for brief talk speech at least it on the slide on IRC click FCC, ehh CPC ns PPC, and then on know sites other options. So the plan is that we will go over the docs first so you will get some information about the various options, and
15:01:52 then we will have questions comments discussions to organize them as we did yesterday so please raise your hands, and with him or myself will invite the next speaker or ask one of the speakers to come and visit so let me share my slides and our speaker
15:02:12 is Ben. Ben Can you share your plates please and start. Yes, of course.
15:02:19 So thank you very much for the invitation it's my pleasure to present the IOC project to you.
15:02:28 So sorry let me make this a bit smaller. I can see it.
15:02:33 So, the International linear collider is a leap, plus minus, linear collider over all about 20, kilometers land long in the initial configuration.
15:02:47 It is intended to start as a Higgs factory with a 250 gV center of mass and achieve.
15:02:55 And it is one distinguishing feature which is that a test polarized team so sorry somehow this is on auto doesn't start the intention so.
15:03:06 And if we run on polarized beats with 80% and 20% polarization the key technologies. At 10 Here are the superconducting RF technology for the mail Enoch, and the nano beam technology, which is necessary to focus the beams to the requires more beam spots.
15:03:26 So that affects the dumping things and to find focus. And I think it's fair to say that in this configuration.
15:03:34 This machine delivers the canonical Higgs factory physics program, which has been prioritized by the European spreadsheet, as the most important step forward in the near future.
15:03:47 So, let me cover a few distinguishing topics for this machine. So, one is certainly the technological readiness. The two key technologies for this machine.
15:04:01 Certainly proven the SRF technology which we use is today really available on an industrial scale you see here a plot of the gradient, versus quality factor you see that the required gradient of 35 megabytes per meter.
15:04:18 At 10 to the 10 quality factor has been reached and laboratories and laboratories and test been surpassed quite substantially cavities, are built by industries and crime models and whole accelerators have been built based on this technology as you see
15:04:35 down here have an image for the European Excel, the nano beam technology has two parts to test the damping rings dumping rings.
15:04:47 Compare well to existing and plant other facilities in particular for photon sources. Yes, you see a lot of the imitators in vertical and horizontal direction, and the ice temping ring is certainly achievable.
15:05:02 The final focus.
15:05:05 Test beam
15:05:07 has been tested at at Fkk and 41 nanometre besides was demonstrated there, which when you scale it up to it energies is within 10% of the design code for the ISC as a linear accelerator, the whole machine is very well upgradeable in energy quite obviously
15:05:29 and also in luminosity possible energy upgrades have been studied to 500 GV or even one TV, which would need an extension, a talent actually can be built during operation of the machine.
15:05:45 So switching to the longer term configuration could presumably be done within one year of dark time also luminosity upgrades are possible by putting more RF in it in a test we realized that these luminosity upgrades perfect or two or even factor for a
15:06:02 250 gb.
15:06:06 Generally, also improve the power efficiency of the machine.
15:06:12 Using superconducting RF technology has a reason. Reason is essentially energy efficiency and sustainability for the on machine the whole machine.
15:06:23 Takes 110 megawatts of power in the initial configuration.
15:06:29 And for energies above roughly 300 GV. When you look at the ratio of luminosity delivered for work power.
15:06:37 It is among the best or after upgrades even the best machine in the world and this energy reach.
15:06:43 It's also a file about the price tag has been evaluated, several times.
15:06:50 And the latest estimate, done by the Japanese colleagues comes out at roughly six and a half to $7 billion, including human resources so in an accounting scheme which is very close to the American one.
15:07:05 And the whole thing is ready for construction we have inside candidate in the kit Academy area in northern Japan.
15:07:13 There we have 50 kilometers of space which would be sufficient for one TV extension of the machine, the geology has been surveyed thoroughly and is excellent for this kind of project schedule has been set up the schedule looks like this that, actually,
15:07:31 hopefully next year, a four year pre lab face could start this pre laboratory phase would be hosted by kk in Japan, and it would be a four year phase for remain aren t writing and engineering design reporting is the whole project, really, to be construction
15:07:52 ready shovel ready so to speak. After that we would have a 10 year construction phase. So we could well be ready for physics in 2036.
15:08:10 Now Howard enterprises in very international project is located in Japan. It has always been an international project at the moment we have the international development team mandated by Exxon which prepare us, the pre lab.
15:08:17 It has two very active working groups, which are concerned, one with physics detectors and software, the other one on accelerated topics and both of these working groups, really welcome your participation, so please go to linear collider.org and find
15:08:35 all the necessary links them on the political front the recent positive developments are we have submitted to create a proposal to the Japanese ministry for science and technology.
15:08:49 Next, We see continuing support in the US, from the QE and the State Department, and recently Max has also started and contacted several European funding agencies in order to initiate consultations on a common way forward for the IOC.
15:09:05 So I think altogether it's fair to say that this is a material project, ready to go.
15:09:12 Thank you.
15:09:27 Thank you very much man so mine was great presentation of time. So, and I'm sure there will be questions after we will go through other talks. So by. Next you will hear about.
15:09:28 Click and Stayner you're connected.
15:09:33 Yes, I can see you if you can share your slides, please, and start.
15:09:45 We can see your slides.
15:09:49 Not yet in presentation mode.
15:09:55 Now everything is fine.
15:10:02 You can see the big the big Yes. Okay. I'm sorry I had a problem finding my. So thank you very much. I'll be by way brief is indeed a restart I found the thought I gave almost a year ago which is also five minutes short sale, that is a little bit was
15:10:17 quite easy to do. So I will, I will
15:10:23 give an overview of the, of the project.
15:10:26 So, this is a clip is also a linear collider
15:10:31 electron push one machine, and is foreseen to be a possibility for CERN after that, I literally area.
15:10:59 And the technical schedule for this is 2035 I similar to ILC but of course, if you look at the reality of the price needed on the resources available.
15:10:52 Prior to me is likely to be related to that it's already determined more by resources probably at this point than a technical and also to make a decision towards a project that's you know we are doing a feasibility study five to see which will certainly
15:11:08 take quite some time to proceed and reach conclusion.
15:11:13 Click is is as his name says the emphasis is making a comeback, it's 11 kilometer to get to 380 GV. Start, be able to do both takes and I thought, yeah.
15:11:34 At that energy will have 20,000 cavities and these cavities are eight cavities, the module. so 2500 characters, sorry modules together.
15:11:41 And then, this makes up to 300 that the machine is expandable.
15:11:48 Obviously, as I mean we know collider CDR was made in 2012.
15:11:54 It was updated with what we call a product implementation plan for the be inspired to be, and the cost is around 6 billion for the 380 estimated at that time.
15:12:11 The power is around, roughly 170 megabytes of RAM and it was just so if I would use to what we estimate and do that on file because we have worked quite a bit on power efficiency.
15:12:24 Now, and turns and includes detailed detect one physician. So these are the parameters. I think the only thing was mentioning here is that the bunch. Crossing the bunch structure this is that a bunch of every half and on the second, and something like
15:12:40 300 bunches coming together.
15:12:43 So, if you include the lifetime and I'm reduction time off the boss length is unlike your methods dilemma lastly is a 1.5 sentence 3522 44 and it goes up to 634 x 20 pretty we, we aim for gradient for the nation states are suddenly two megabyte per meter.
15:13:17 The timeline for such a machine is shown here, first of all to see their footprint, close to the galaxy you see the 11th kilometer, which is basically what's below.
15:13:27 Let's see, so of course in the same theological area.
15:13:32 We think we can in fact construct a machine, relatively fast we need the preparation time we need to find funding for it. But if you could stop destruction and not be limited by funding.
15:13:44 Since it's a very compact machine.
15:13:48 You have an estimated construction time that says that we can be ready and something like seven years and then we can operate, and then we can start expanding it, but then you need a two year, right, we're so connected to the server stateless, and so
15:14:07 So that's, that's the basic overview of the machine.
15:14:11 Maybe a few words on what's happening since you'll be inspired to go update.
15:14:15 We have particular work on on the permanent monastic performance. There was questions related to how to perform on the set, all the little little bit on what kind of gamma gamma spectrum.
15:14:28 And we, and this would be a focus for the coming years to see if we can convince ourselves that we can run the higher luminosity there are parts of the margins for that.
15:14:40 And if I were given the sentences from the dental remiss if we could concern that to the position point.
15:14:46 We will have a factor three higher luminosity. This is unrealistic to do but there's a question of how much imperfections and corrections, we can do. And maybe we can in fact, one of the higher initial Illuminati.
15:14:59 There's also a possibility, double these pulses I mentioned that 259 seconds so they come on 50 hertz we could invincible What do 100 pounds is the cost a little bit more, and increase the power or something like 60 megabits, but it will also double the
15:15:17 luminosity.
15:15:17 We are working quite a bit, sterilizing, including improving the clasp on efficiency.
15:15:24 The click is based on a dry beam so there's metal band.
15:15:29 by being with high intensity.
15:15:31 Of course, if we can improve the efficiency of the class starts we can reduce the power.
15:15:37 And then other thing we are doing we are really making sure that we have the manufacturer possibility. We need high precision machining in particular for all these disks.
15:15:46 And so for me this structure, and you're checking the this is where we are available on the time to be doing industrial studies to make sure that this is happening.
15:15:55 The program for this, for the coming years.
15:15:59 We will keep focusing on the technology the hydrogen technology.
15:16:06 One key of that is to make sure we work with application projects so smaller machines use and expand, because this helps on the technology development but also helps to develop the industrial base, not only on log on to our next month the bones but also
15:16:23 power sources related to that.
15:16:34 We have this so caught up in design study running to the end of this year, we just put a compact light within six partners all over the world. You see, using this.
15:16:49 This technology and that the our compact everything we just compact Linux is a significant interest in the medical industry.
15:16:59 We look at inverse conflicts capturing sources, and the support even in Holland which we also are very much involved. And then, this expand on it's also useful for for diagnostics in fe else.
15:17:16 In addition to the, the, expand being dynamics a parameter stuck as I mentioned at the time we really increased the luminosity and the sound that in the.
15:17:34 update of next update that EBS back to deep.
15:17:30 And then, we do further technical development of, of, of many different parts.
15:17:38 So would the goal now for for the next year be inspired to do which has been agreed and abandoned by Muslim concern that in finance we go back maybe on mentioned also.
15:17:53 This is more specific for the sun, the net behind the studies. Obviously we also support what Ben know just talked about IMC related on D amp D lab black productive in that.
15:18:03 And many of the issues related to click of course as a significant overlap, like nano beams classroom efficiency and not dumping rings and so on.
15:18:15 So we tried to support that also as well as.
15:18:19 There's more. There's not really under the click having is more under their limit language.
15:18:25 So I'll go for the next distracted the update which has been agreed.
15:18:30 We will not have a project readiness report, which will move us towards a DDR but will not be a complete TDR we don't have enough resources to get you there, and in particular the focus will be developing technology.
15:18:46 Technology optimizing and then the last year, but we also have some smaller r&d is related to improving the power efforts to see is not only for the initial phase, but if you really want to go to high energy it's even higher than pre Christmas at all
15:19:03 possible. So there's a little bit more detail on this. So this is kind of the agreed goal for the project over the next.
15:19:11 Over the next five to six years.
15:19:18 In, in the US and Canada, we work, and always worked in a way with slack.
15:19:21 Also, we have now from time to time meetings concerning the cool copper studies at Slack, but generally we always work with slack related to expand the power sources.
15:19:37 We have earlier.
15:19:39 We also work with Oregon.
15:19:42 We have worked at Oregon for a number of issues but now. In fact, we have a little r&d project are planning to have a law in the body to study off of their electric materials which is really far.
15:19:54 If you can imagine, using that for fly reduce is,
15:20:01 is another design of a machine but really on the technology side, we have worked earlier quite a bit for Cornell on damping studies and instrumentation and the thermal eyeballs on instrumentation.
15:20:14 This projects have been finished and and even before that we worked with the gala.
15:20:19 In Canada, we worked with Canadian light source, we spent we worked Canadian light source. And because my name is compact the issues are interesting for for light sources on their fields of course.
15:20:32 Okay, I'll give you a number of links to more information. I will not go through that.
15:20:38 And this is the map.
15:20:53 This and the Madison fact that Canada should have been on here, and this will change the color significantly.
15:20:51 Except for that I think is fairly complete. So this is for the accelerator calibration and this wasn't this wasn't.
15:20:55 Thank you.
15:20:58 Thank you staying there. So, very nice presentation so they hope your slides are uploaded using decaf because I was requested. If not, please upload either there should be there.
15:21:09 Okay. Excellent. Thank you. So and I expect there will be questions.
15:21:13 So let's move now to a drum colliders and Frank will present a brief summary. Frank Can you share your slides, please.
15:21:28 Yes, good afternoon, Good evening.
15:21:30 Good morning. So I was asked by the organizers to report about the second regulators and two main projects one is the FCC FCC HHNZ as a CPC SPC this different possible upgrades.
15:21:49 So I would like to say mechanic and g.
15:21:51 for input to this freelancers.
15:21:54 Oops, I didn't know your slides.
15:21:58 You don't see the slides, why not to know. Now we can see them. But, strange ways that cutter.
15:22:06 Okay, one more time that we see from beginning, click, do you see. Do you see anything.
15:22:12 Now we see you in one to cut down yeah singers are very good yes I visited this place a couple of years ago it's called the Chinese Toscana. So, and it's bilingual, you will let you were like it everything that is written in Chinese and international
15:22:28 because they have a lot of Russian too so it's a cool so
15:22:33 anyways the SP FCC and the CPC es PPC integrated programs, both inspired by the successful. He programs, etc.
15:22:43 Oh my God, my screen became like.
15:22:46 Do you still see something. No, we also see black but first we saw on the slides.
15:22:52 This is a problem was my graphics cut I hope it will come back.
15:22:55 This problem happens.
15:22:59 Okay, some guests coming back, hopefully.
15:23:03 Apologies, since I got, since I got this computer must be back in this little, I don't know
15:23:10 What happens, we can see some white screen.
15:23:13 Yeah, me too. I don't see any slides, what happens. Perhaps one of us could project it for you. Yeah. Look, why not we probably can open your slides. Yes, why not.
15:23:27 You will just tell us when to change, you know, some animation smile,
15:23:36 a minute yes Franken excuses anything coming back.
15:23:52 It's in pieces of your screen. Yeah, I see nothing. Let me, let me stop. See what happens.
15:23:53 Everything worked fine before I connected to this.
15:23:58 This is what he was sharing Yep.
15:24:01 You're saying, Okay good, then you're saying, Okay.
15:24:05 Okay very good look. Go on, anyway yes let me talk No, please go back to the previous life.
15:24:16 Yes, like number two.
15:24:18 Yes, I don't quite yet see it okay anyway both of these programs, they aim at the long term.
15:24:27 research program was his first stage, it was the minus collider which is called FCC or CPC and that poor ww special on the X product Hicks said production peak and the TT bus specials.
15:24:42 As expected, electronic and top factory at the highest luminosity said all these energies and then in a second stage. That would be hard on Collider, is that called FCC HHS PPC.
15:25:05 as a natural continuation on the chief content, and was, and this was Goliath have Iam collision and electron hadn't on collision options.
15:25:06 Physics of the left on how to credit is complimentary, they both machines in either case share common civil engineering and technical infrastructure.
15:25:14 And in the case. So this is this a change but this is the old version and in the case of the FCC, the machine, the project based on the existing sun infrastructure so the Hadron Collider would use the existing LXG and injector chain, as it pre injected
15:25:31 by the SPC is a Greenfield machine and would also require a complete injector chain.
15:25:38 You can see a different layouts for both machines and layout is consistent footprint is consistent for the laptop had a machine so they share a common footprint and you see possible location so.
15:25:51 Next slide.
15:25:51 It is remarkable that the two design efforts which are most completely independent have come up arrived at almost identical solution.
15:26:04 slowly changing.
15:26:06 Anyway, both machines are doubled in colliders with full energy top serving CPC started with energy 54 Kimmy diving but ended up is about hundred kilometer.
15:26:16 Similar to the FCC, they have to collision points, possibly upgraded too far, and two states and as both machines have an asymmetric into actually using layout to limit the synchronization of the incoming beams to the detector, and to generate your last
15:26:32 costing required to establish and profit from the cup race condition scheme.
15:26:38 The common if system has the highest beam energy which minimizes the total number of cavities week fight and this is possible because at the highest energy the number of bunches is quite limited.
15:26:49 Okay. Next slide please.
15:26:54 Frank, don't slow down for a slide that changed immediately it's probably your, your video but I don't see it yeah yeah I don't see it takes a violent I see it.
15:27:10 Okay.
15:27:06 The shows the parameters for the different energies and blue and black as the FCC parameters in red is the CBC so FCC is from the CDs 2018 CPC is a new TD parameters and you know the parameters are very similar.
15:27:20 The only difference is that FCC assumes hundred megabits synchronization power and CPC 60 megabits. This translates into a different number of branches, but if you scale the number of branches, you will see almost identical performance and identically
15:27:37 luminosity. The only difference is at the Tiki Bar, where
15:27:43 the admittance vertical admittance of the CPC is higher and also the vertical be tested so I have asked our Chinese colleagues why it's a TT buzzer is this difference and the answer is the TT by is not yet fully optimized.
15:27:56 So I'm confident that in a short time also the TD bar will be very similar for the two machines.
15:28:03 But, for example, they're really very similar. So for example, where it could be tested for FCC is point eight millimeter for CPC is point nine millimeter.
15:28:18 And for the Higgs, they have the identical be tested so this really almost identical parameters. Next slide please.
15:28:26 Okay.
15:28:28 As I said, takes over and maybe I should. Okay, this shows. This shows that this is a very energy efficient machine does the Ws MC scale luminosity divided by four black power as a function of the center of mass energy and CPC would look similar, more
15:28:46 or less slightly worse.
15:28:49 And anyway, after the basically from the zapper up to about the TT bar, it's the most energy efficient machine.
15:28:57 And then you can see that from that from around top clock on linear colliders take over and at CTV or beyond your uncle is predicted to be the most efficient.
15:29:08 Next slide please.
15:29:14 Yes electricity costs anyway. Super kkb is a demonstrate that test many of the key concepts that he has established.
15:29:29 This is essentially device to have point eight millimeter in both things which is smartest beat us to ever and is also the smallest value that we would ever consider for Fz, and the additional vertical two minutes to see tons of 74 and 22nd of June, He
15:29:38 See 10s of 75 and 22nd of June, he was in the venture capitalists collision scheme that was first developed for FCC five years ago.
15:29:43 Next LED.
15:29:49 And I come to the Hadron Collider. This shows on the web for say pick the message was sent us energy. You see this step from the template gone to the LLC.
15:30:03 So FCC hh with a committed by 20 invest at a band per experiment over 25 years. And since the SPC luminosity is low estimate about 10 invest at the been over 25 years.
15:30:16 And this has to be compared with sweet invest at a band for the LHEHLHEK Technologies Highfield Magnus, evidently.
15:30:25 Next slide.
15:30:29 Just, these are the parameters fuzzy for these different Hadron Collider
15:30:36 The SPC is somewhat less ambitious in the magnetic field, and due to the lower energy synchronization power is effective to less peak luminosity is somewhere between the first and second stage of FCC hh and pile up in FCC which is about 1000 events per
15:30:52 closing and SPC it's stays at about 300 events but causing.
15:30:58 Next slide.
15:31:03 This is a timeline for the FCC study.
15:31:09 And yet.
15:31:11 Okay, we need about 11 years of preparation.
15:31:16 Under the start of
15:31:19 10 about 10 years of evasion and there's this type of tunnel construction, and which would then take about 20 years from now, we could start the physics around 2040, and the FCC would run for 15 years and then we need seven to 10 years to take out the
15:31:38 moves the electron collided install the Hadron Collider, which was run for 25 years and yellows as some dn developmental and further left on machine which is mainly the optimization technology exists but we like to make it the most energy efficient possible.
15:31:50 And in green is a more fundamental Andy needed fuzzy Hadron Collider to establish it develops a superconductor needed for the magnets and develops the high feud magnets and to lower the price was that we kind of see his production of 5000 times you think
15:32:06 that's for the FCC.
15:32:07 Okay. Next slide.
15:32:16 Maybe that's some animation actually I wanted to say something here that some days. Yeah, in 2014, or early 2014 startup sec and 2065. Start of physics for sec hh.
15:32:25 This is the latest schedule from our Chinese colleagues, do you think this is a start earlier in the construction already in 2025 26 and they said physics in the early 20s 30s.
15:32:37 But Hadron Collider actually has a similar starting date around 2065 is the start of the Chinese Hadron Collider.
15:32:47 So this is quite at least a Hadron Collider timescale is the same and left uncle is more aggressive.
15:32:56 Next slide.
15:32:57 I hope we manage this is a bit slow because I don't know, turning the slides maybe the connection to Colorado is really slow.
15:33:09 Okay, I wanted to So actually, we are doing a lot of simulations and, but our Chinese fans they do a lot of hardware development and this new RFSF platforms, is the most remarkable has just come into operation.
15:33:23 This campus can produce around 20 k images per year and all of China as soon as they can produce about hundred kilometres per year, which is which is outstanding I think they can deliver higher modules to the anti ever.
15:33:37 So I think that will have no problems buildings that had that for this, for these colors.
15:33:43 At least not for the electron machine.
15:33:45 Thank you. Next slide. Maybe there's one or two more slides.
15:33:53 On slide is up is up but I don't see it let me see maybe I should have a separate set as my slides just continue speaking because slides up immediately immediately and maybe it's app but I don't know what it shows so anyway we had for the FCC by the FCC
15:34:08 see topic, technical give us an April to June. One was on the SF system and new type of cavity was proposed which combines click technology and superconducting technology so called square cavity, which would be a solution for our energies if it works.
15:34:24 This is promoted by ego see that Jeff and Frank.
15:34:28 by ego I see that Jeff and Franco JV had an object of view we found an optimized layout for the FCC injected with the help of the psi colleagues and others, and we had a placement of the view very importantly, which came up with a conclusion of is a strong
15:34:41 recommendation.
15:34:42 As a result of this place mentally view we have changed the layout and the circumference of the machine.
15:34:47 And we chose the lowest risk option which has a conference for on 92 kilometers and only eight surface sites, fully symmetric and fully super periodic.
15:34:59 And there's many mistakes minimizes the risk, and it also gives full flexibility and we can relate to a later time the choice of two or four collision points I believe opens up the possibility to have a plus or minus collide of his five piece and.
15:35:15 Next slide please.
15:35:17 Maybe it's open. Okay.
15:35:20 I don't dare to touch anything as on my screen is open.
15:35:25 The magnet is fabulous. Yes, you will like it anyways this is just a reminder that the world record, etc magnet was demonstrated at family but no it's already one year ago maybe there's some us at that time you went last year, the average 14.5 Tesla,
15:35:46 don't know, I didn't get 15 Tesla has been reached. In the meantime, but you will cover, tell us later. I think maybe there's one, I don't know, Is there anything that says certainly collaboration. Collaboration ok we have about 150 Institute's 30 companies
15:35:55 Collaboration okay we have about 150 Institute's 30 companies and 34 countries involved in the creation, important news is that the feasibility study governance structure was approved by the sun Council in June, including the milestones and deliverables
15:36:10 of the feasibility study, and we have five pillars in this study, one of which sex is.
15:36:28 If you FCC feasibility study collaboration board meeting is plan to be held in mid September 21, very soon.
15:36:23 Actually in two weeks from now.
15:36:26 And we also had an FCC week and I didn't put any slide but we had 700 participants in the virtual FCC week and June and July, and we covered all the continents, except for Antarctica and this time we didn't have anybody from Australia or Melbourne is
15:36:42 a member of the collaboration.
15:36:44 Last night is extremity. I think so.
15:36:49 I don't see it. Oh yeah, the two second Hicks factories and electronic factories propose called FCC and CPC, and both farmers highly efficient performance overlarge energy range spending from the zz output to the top as threshold, and the independent
15:37:04 design efforts led to very similar layouts and parameters for the improvements, or possibly be working on another running mood with monochromatic SS channel Direct X production.
15:37:14 And we also looking at for collision points instead of two which would almost Wz effective luminosity.
15:37:21 The synergistic r&d efforts are ongoing. And especially in China, they have poor to type a lot of key components.
15:37:33 For example, they have three different prototype diapers for the booster already, and is a machine would prepare the ground for subsequent Hadron Collider a sec agenda is PPC, and would enable exciting funkier physics programs, extending over essentially,
15:37:43 And we have entered with FCC the feasibility study phase with the design of this usability study will inform the next update of the been strategy for particle physics and expected in 2627.
15:37:56 Thank you. sorry for taking the time.
15:37:59 Thank you, Frank. Look at it was an interesting presentation in spite of technical challenges. Thank you again, and we are moving to our last presentation so Pushpa heart will present options which were developed recently for the site filler and it will
15:38:16 cover different types of claims, Greece, can use See, we can see.
15:38:24 Okay, good afternoon everyone. So I've been asked to talk about possible for me labcyte killer collider options so that's what I'll try to let's see I hope.
15:38:35 Yeah, okay, you can advance.
15:38:38 Okay, so let me just start with a few words and global high energy physics considerations.
15:38:52 There is a broad consensus in the global health community that any plus c minus x factory should be the next Collider, followed by of course you know net PP Collider, possibly, to take us to the next frontier.
15:39:02 The prime candidates for the Higgs factory, of course, you will see FCC, click on CBC which you heard about already.
15:39:11 These are of course great physics potential technology, very well understood and hopefully are feasible.
15:39:18 There are of course challenges with regards to funding, political and sociological challenges timescale us of course is committed to continuing strong collaboration with our international partners and AMC in Japan and if cc it's on to help realize those
15:39:36 machines, but snowman studies and opportunity for novel academic exercises and to focus international efforts on some new ideas. So we have been looking at whether there are alternate options for a Higgs factory and, and for other colliders, particularly
15:39:55 since all of these global projects are really big than long timescale expensive projects are their options for compact modest costs shorter timescale collider machines that may have reasonable physics potential as kind of an intermediate steps don't to
15:40:15 the, to the major machines to come.
15:40:20 This is part of global planning to advance energy frontier Physics and Technology. And as you all know Fermilab is kind of busy with the peak two will be enough and doing projects so so any machine that has to be built there will be beyond that, those
15:40:38 projects horizon.
15:40:40 And there's a recently from Fermilab future Kaleidoscope which is beginning to consider possible compact secular collider options will also developing plans for engagement in IRC and FCC efforts at the international partnerships, of course are critical
15:40:57 for the health of our feet.
15:40:59 So, since we are talking about Fermilab site fillers. Here are the possible machines if it's a circular machine the circumference can be 16 kilometer or slightly higher 16 and a half up to 17 but we want will have to keep it to close to 16 kilometer.
15:41:19 And the linear machine, have to fit within seven kilometers.
15:41:24 So the machines that we are considering circulatory plus c minus six factory, which can go up to 240 TV so this is a smaller left in fact Wilson wanted to build a Demi lab and Fermilab but, so this is going to be like lab three shrunk to funnel upside
15:41:46 linearly plus c minus six factory, you have already seen some of the proposals, which can be 50 GV also credible, to find a JV for us the cool copper collider concept and beyond Collider, of course, Higgs factory to six or eight TV can fit on Fermilab
15:42:06 site. We are also looking into PP collider which will be 2428 TV there are various other options, which I won't cover just mentioned them.
15:42:16 work is needed for definitely wants answers on these machines. So some of the basic assumptions that of course I constraint and and power constraints for the circular Higgs factory we think that the luminosity to be useful should be higher than money
15:42:41 34 which is around what left three slightly higher than what like three had estimated and slightly below you'll see the video cross section for zx at 251, to 40 GV that themes about 20,000 hits events, but 10 to the seven second to about point to immerse
15:43:23 a bond career.
15:43:19 New plus minus six factory which can go up to multi TV the peak luminosity Atari 26 GV would be about one he 32, that's the map projections so that's that's kind of the baseline that you learn the minimum. It looks like higher luminosity may be possible and of
15:43:23 and of course at higher energies higher luminosity Is that possible for them beyond provided for the PP Collider in the energy range of 24 to 28 TV which is actually proxy for a cheer let's see so we want to be at least a 2425 GV or, if possible, slightly
15:43:41 higher, and the luminosity here should be well in excess of one in 34, in order to be able to be useful. I also wanted to just mention that with any new machine we need to consider energy efficiency sustainability and clean energy and environment I think
15:43:57 this is very, you know, crucial.
15:44:01 this is very, you know, crucial at the current time. And, in fact, I just want to remind you that he has a panel on sustainable accelerators and colliders and so maybe they will help I mean, I'm showing an image of solar wind farm which probably can go
15:44:16 in the middle of the challenging thing Brookhaven has one of one of those.
15:44:20 So moving on to the circular e plus c minus six factory.
15:44:25 Again, as I said, it's 16 kilometer in circumference and we are constraining 200 megawatt power with both beams, which is what previous machines have assumed energy in front of 20 Gb per beam.
15:44:46 And we get the luminosity of 1.12 times 10 to 34, similar to, you know, they said like three and, and I see but definitely novel ideas can help we can look at ways of actually trying to increase that little bit.
15:45:00 So polarization is going to be hard in such a small circular ring but you know that's something to look at.
15:45:08 There are of course various challenges for being control IR optics with small beta y star radio to control chromatic city and to maintain sufficient dynamic aperture, you will need top of injection because the beam lifetime is only about eight minutes.
15:45:25 There are other issues of course synchrotron radiation effects and keeping the vertical admittance minimized.
15:45:34 And, I mean, minimize the growth from a spurious sources and so on.
15:45:41 There is a very cool concept and the technology that is being developed by slack and you've seen this proposal and you heard a couple of talks already mentioning, talking about this.
15:45:55 The proposal is for a normal conducting copper cavity accelerator collider upgrading 77 Kelvin which could reach gradient of foreign 20 megawatts per meter.
15:46:07 This can be one to 234 250 GV using about 70 to 85 megabits per meter gradient cavities. This apparently scalable, I fit some thermal upside so that's why we are happy to have this as a saved filter option, and they can be actually upgraded with the otter
15:46:29 for upgrades to 450 GV on Fermilab site and of course if it's outside it can be multi TV.
15:46:38 This also benefits from our end right now the linear collider technology in Inc and click for being delivery systems dumping links and so on. The single character tests have either excellent results and the collaboration is actually proposing a demonstrator
15:46:55 facility for consideration at Snowmass. There are other linear color options aside fillers that have been suggested for example, for example, click Apply strong technology which can also provide 70 215 megabits per meter.
15:47:12 A sort of traveling the image can have 70 megabytes per meter which is proposed being considered for the upgrade. Anyway, so we need to advance various design studies and comparisons between these options and and r&d that might be necessary Mian collider
15:47:29 will have been talks and there was a very nice discussion yesterday so I won't say very much about this.
15:47:38 You know there has been of course an explosion of interest in the community with a compact collider for multi kV scale, and is capable of precision measurements and discovery, and it can be staged with physics and each, each, each stage, and on Fermilab
15:47:57 side, we can have pigs factory. On the way to six or eight TV machine and stretch could be you and attend TV machine but there are other radiation issues, which might make that kind of untenable.
15:48:13 So, here is the parameter table that I've taken from the mod farmers paper my former at on and some numbers songs from David no further.
15:48:27 I just want to say about plan development in a formula accelerator complex, pick two and further development for in pain if tool will provide a robust infrastructure, with multi megawatt proton source, which, which is necessary for it features around
15:48:45 proton driver based on a talks I synergy with neutrino program which is also, you know, interesting and important for me to stay face for example his charm.
15:49:03 And then, also for Christian physics program. So let me say a few words about compacted on collider formula, the site filler in the 16 millimeter ring.
15:49:11 24 to 28 TV will need higher than 20 Tesla magnets. We think that they'll LTS HTS hybrid magnets might be able to yield magnetic fields in the range of 20 to 2526 Tesla.
15:49:31 Again, Fermilab has a nice robust in injector infrastructure.
15:49:36 The new machine of course can be an injector for the future we'll see if if one needs to be built in Chicago land.
15:49:43 So here are some numbers for Fermilab side filler PP collider from tonnages and 24. tv center of mass.
15:49:59 Currently, we say that 24.4 Tesla magnets are needed for this.
15:50:06 And the luminosity is about five times 2034 which kind of compares reasonably well with the you know each year. Let's see MCC, a change, and the number of the number of pilot events per bunch passing is about 35, so that the parameters look somewhat reasonable
15:50:26 Hi fi dipole magnets as I said interaction reason moments machine perfection. Hi synchrotron radiation and beam dynamics issues. And of course we have lot of experience from LLC and many of these things except that the speech will be more intense, in
15:50:35 but of course there are lots of challenges.
15:50:49 this case for a smaller ring and the cost of course would be the biggest issue. Just wanted to say. As far as the magnet technology is concerned, current record for the.
15:51:03 Now you've been teen magnet is 16.5 meters long conductor 14.5 Tesla magnet with 16 millimeter aperture which Frank already showed attempts at getting to 17 to 18 Tesla, or ongoing that also r&d efforts on hybrids, the results, we should have something
15:51:24 in next couple of years.
15:51:26 In about 10 years we think that we will have demonstrators for 20 to 25 Tesla magnets and the US magnet achievement program is trying to advance this technology improve performance and cost reduction is one of the major things also that they're focusing
15:51:45 on the ABS magnet Byron Bay superconducting magnets, which is what these PPC hope folks are hoping for is very promising for greater than 20 Tesla, but it's very early days need aggressive r&d, and if this pants are then it might provide cheap robust
15:52:07 Highfield magnet option. So let me close with saying that Snowmass provides the opportunity to consider and study facilities that can be hosted in the US, and to shape the US, and global hundreds of this program for the coming decades, the US communities
15:52:24 is already actively engaged in their efforts on the major projects dial safer in Japan and FCC media chatter, son. And the first to consider these compact machines that might be realized on modest timescales and cause could be profitable for the community.
15:52:43 So, let me.
15:52:57 Flash this slide that you saw a similar one from tour yesterday.
15:52:57 Thanks.
15:52:59 So look, it's an interesting sort of list of options here so feelings aside. So, thank you. So I think that at this moment so we open for discussion questions to those who presented the dogs.
15:53:14 So, as we can. I shall stop sharing should be yes you probably should stop because I would say it's probably good to see people who ask questions if you can turn on by the way you'll be here when you're asking question, or answering questions that would
15:53:30 be great. So, look, please raise you can so while you're sinking Let me ask one question to stain or about clique, so one of your slides you get the statement like cost stable since 2012.
15:53:45 So what does it mean is there is no inflation, of course is going down as inflation is to the, to the facts.
15:53:55 In fact that in Swiss franc, the, the, the costs for the normal material has been incredibly stable, because even if there's a slight inflation.
15:54:08 Inflation has been incredibly low.
15:54:11 And, and the Swiss francs remain strong, strong.
15:54:15 So we had some concerns and the civil engineering costs will go up.
15:54:20 Because if you look at the civil engineering civil civil engineering costs, keep going up and, you know, over the time is 20 to 30%.
15:54:28 But if you redo the civil engineering, exercise, it comes out to be less than that so so I wouldn't say it is exactly the same, but it, I had some concerns that during the recording we will get 20 and 30% more.
15:54:45 And we are not. We are very close to one.
15:54:48 So that was using.
15:54:51 Thank you.
15:54:54 Let's explain.
15:54:54 So maybe one question while as there should think about questions to been released to you mentioned this prayer lab was the first four years of the ILC.
15:55:12 So can you say a little bit more what this is about yourself, because people might not know what the plan is.
15:55:22 Okay, I think the main motivation is
15:55:19 that this would be a precursor to a full blown international lap.
15:55:24 and it would be an international project it would not be a subsidiary of k k, and it takes quite some time.
15:55:46 Certainly to set up such an international organization.
15:55:50 So in order to get going. The idea is to have this pre lab, which conducts the necessary aren t, which hands out contracts for engineering design all these things under the auspices of kk, and in that time during that time, the international agreements
15:56:12 collaboration agreements funding agreements cost sharing would be negotiated, and then a truly international laboratory would get going.
15:56:24 Essentially, with, with the, you know, start off construction, and the expectations is the spray lab will start sometime in 22 years old, next year.
15:56:35 That So, yes.
15:56:38 Okay, thank you. So, any, okay, Michael Miguel, yes he's quite a, please Michael. So I think this has been really nice, and I really appreciated all of the ovary overviews of the different facilities.
15:56:54 One thing which I didn't quite grasp from this in the way it was presented, is what are the common elements of r&d that can be pursued today that would have the biggest impact on the full, or at least an optimal set of the future landscape.
15:57:23 Now, are these projects need superconducting if and highly efficient I have power sources.
15:57:37 Sometimes it's slightly different frequencies, but I think there's a lot of common Andy for this superconducting life. Yeah, I think, I think the only RF in fact superconductors this year but even normal conduction efficiency and performance.
15:57:48 Obviously for the Hadron Collider is the magnets, you know, unavoidable.
15:57:57 Cost of magnets reliability minus. And then of course what is also in government for the, for the NFL machines is what we call, at least in some areas we've got a none of the executive we would love it and since instability alignment.
15:58:12 Everything we just needed to not only great speeds but maintain them.
15:58:21 Yeah.
15:58:21 yeah i mean i think i think that that's fair to say I think it's also bought to realize that some.
15:58:29 I mean, maybe the degree of r&d that you really need is different across the projects. Right, so I mean everybody strives to get higher efficiency flies drones, better performance cavities and things like that.
15:58:46 But then the projects which are really significant to be beyond the world record, as we just saw here in magnetic fields, and others are that say at the phase where we strive to get industrial use.
15:59:04 So, so be fired for the last 10% of course but we don't fight for the general release a reliability anymore. So, so in that sense.
15:59:20 limited.
15:59:24 You know,
15:59:24 Things that we have together.
15:59:27 I think I have seen clicker ready fruitful collaboration naturally on a number of items and I think it might be useful to have this common r&d priorities actually kind of will spare you know stipulated and, and, and program for different types of machine
15:59:50 secular linear and different beings, being types would be very useful.
15:59:55 Just like those collaborations.
15:59:59 It was mentioned yesterday at young collider section already about importance for Snowmass to put together at least of critical research and development collectors things that's indeed many of these activities might be joined between different options.
16:00:19 Yeah. Okay, good. So we have Alessandra and up so Sandra Do you want to.
16:00:27 Yeah, I have a question on the on the secular which I think is very nice idea, especially the last slide. If you want to share it again the last slide, which is nice summary of the various possibilities.
16:00:39 My question is the following.
16:00:47 It's something we taught us in the report of Snowmass were to consider one is it, what is a physics scenarios that, which would have a few scenarios that we should pursue.
16:00:54 One technology versus another.
16:00:56 And, but also we should see many awesome. What is it, what's the banality.
16:01:02 And with respect to other ongoing project for example, CERN, for example the FCC or Orly Nikolai there a click. And what happens in China, so kind of analogy I think for example musical either is definitely a clear example of somehow a project which is
16:01:22 new or somehow different.
16:01:22 But, for example, the case of the Hadron Collider.
16:01:25 What you show they said we limited by the, the magnets and to reach such high fuel magnets. My fear is that we have to maybe wait until the time we get FCC hh ready.
16:01:40 Unless we inject a lot of effort in developing the technology.
16:01:46 So of course it is adoption which is so in all scenarios like it bad manners can be can pick up to international other international projects. So maybe, can you elaborate more or can we work towards separating be more towards the report of Snowmass what
16:02:00 options are physical any what scenarios.
16:02:04 Yeah, I mean, as you said, I think neon collider collaboration has been has been very good with the international neon collider collaboration that's initiated by CERN and then Snowmass collider neon collaborative forum they're doing lots of work with
16:02:20 to the PP collider I just want to show that, you know, I mean you saw that Fermilab has been under the US magnet development program for Mila Brookhaven will be on that on working together on Highfield magnet r&d.
16:02:39 And also, this is also going on in Europe, and also in China. So, if you look at the, the European timeline. They also talk about demos 20 Tesla magnet design, you know, somewhere between 2025 to 2027.
16:02:59 So, so there is a lot of r&d going on with high temperature superconductors I wish there was more in Europe and, and in the US on the item based superconductors because they will be cheap and probably have better mechanical properties.
16:03:21 And, you know, I think cost would be a big problem for the, for these magnets I mean currently 16 Tesla magnet one excellent the magnet, I think, is something of the order of $10 million per magnet.
16:03:35 Somebody can correct me if, if that's not correct. So it's, you know, so the cost has to come down so the database superconductor conductor conductor research, bringing up the, the critical current that one can attain in that and demonstrating the magnetic
16:03:56 field.
16:03:58 China has done that but it's still too much lower fields. so I think that's something that can be a coordinated effort between the different regions to do to push the.
16:04:11 It's both the hybrid magnet r&b as well as abs are in the.
16:04:18 So, Frank has raised his hand maybe he has a comment on this.
16:04:25 I suspect so let's go directly on this but I have a, I have a question to push back concerning the site for that maybe you explained it better both Steiner and Ben Jose made the case that the linear collider can be extended etc.
16:04:38 And if you built a senior collider on the family left side, Ivan, and also more generally, is this site is absolute constraint, or could you extend and go beyond the site the vl he used to be far outside that's me that's a young man he of course would
16:04:55 be I would have been outside and the LC also initially, when the TD or was being worked on. It was going to be outside so I mean, the.
16:05:09 Of course if you stay inside it immediately eliminates lots of problems, right, political and sociological problems.
16:05:20 But, but I don't think we need to be constrained on two, and two per minute side but the the CCC The nice thing is that, you know, you can go to 500 or 550 gb on, even if it's on site in the end if that's true, If we can get her on 10 220 megahertz per
16:05:46 I think it might be worthwhile just staying on site. Maybe one could use, you know, after this is built and operated for operated and upgraded for 20 years or so, by that time we may have advanced.
16:05:58 They feel accelerations plasma field acceleration so we could, you know upgraded with those are, you know, you can build probably an EMC machine so it may not, if you can actually go to 500 gb or beyond on site, then it might be just worth staying on
16:06:15 site which as I said that image lots of other issues.
16:06:20 But yeah, I've saved is not not not impossible, which will Justin in Wall mod mod mod work on possible upgrade past you could go upside was it was a bigger thing or say maybe later on if you meet 30 years.
16:06:43 Okay, thank you.
16:06:46 Other questions or comments for Christian to stain or Stinger is on the previous slide by Pushpa where she showed in a linear colliders feet and film upside.
16:06:59 This 70 millimeter was 65 to 70 millimeter.
16:07:05 Click question type collider would for 240 ge with perfectly fit.
16:07:11 I just want I believe some enthusiasm is connected to the fact that the 5.7 gigahertz area has been extensively used for example for specific constructions the specific Lena.
16:07:22 I don't recall what what what is the gradient there, but at least the scale of the facilities are quite impressive it's six JV Lena, probably the the most modern normal conducting Lena, right.
16:07:32 So, I just wonder how much of a design change would be required to do, think about facility like, like, like the site feeler country to Lehigh. I think that's completely, completely feasible.
16:07:50 What if I we were quite a bit from DSI and I learned quite a bit from psi because the way they build the sea band structures.
16:07:57 We have also they've also been expanse lots of in the same way.
16:08:01 to what they used to be as I structure deceive and structure, and instead Mr. Being Swiss, they have a precise, so they build when I lay high and mechanical position and lay low breakdown right.
16:08:25 I can also tell you remember the gradient.
16:08:28 But we made a study for click for 380 DV and fact and that's still an 11 kilometer machine, using expand the drawback of that machine is that we need.
16:08:40 Roughly 5000 plus fans, the next round.
16:08:44 If you go down to 240, maybe go to see van DRV optimization, back off a little bit on the luminosity. Guess I mean if you can get the machine ready.
16:09:00 In 2035, I think, you know, you can run a little bit longer.
16:09:02 Maybe, maybe you can reduce that number of license, but I think it would. I think the critical items will be the classrooms. In fact, the second not so many classes on producers in the world.
16:09:14 Nobody can produce.
16:09:16 At least currently, that number. So you have to take one or two of your labs and really getting in working with a glass top producer to be able to produce glass on at the last day, and then being able to do a man to repair and six class on the base class
16:09:32 starts but I think it's certainly doable project.
16:09:35 Now, because we find the slightly higher than for the driving even adroit we at, but did a student to complete it depends completely on what you assume for the classroom costs.
16:09:46 So if you have a clever and work very well with industry on the classrooms. I'm not sure it's more expensive but you have no idea to, you know, we have a classroom cost which is substantially higher than they used to have it for the NMC and slack we don't
16:10:03 think that's really achievable with industry. But, but, you know, if you really go for that project and work with industry, maybe it is achievable, but it's, it's not a, it's not completely.
16:10:18 You know it's not easy to defend.
16:10:21 Today the class thumbs down to that lives. When I said, The difference was something like 15%, compared to decline 50% higher.
16:10:31 You know, if you are more optimistic than the glass on you gain that back soon. So I think it's interesting to consider.
16:10:37 I think, you know, for our field together Hicks factory sooner. Before we on the field is dead, is probably the highest priority.
16:10:52 At this point, the question. Yeah, that's that's definitely true. Okay, Tyler Sanders question I just remembered the island based superconductors we had actually started some r&d and the conductor formula with nd already but then the young scientist who
16:11:10 was working on that she got a very lucrative offer from a company and so, you know, we lost.
16:11:27 Bush per se that has a question and she she's the expert in super heroes and magnets, and we know our Please go ahead.
16:11:36 Yes.
16:11:38 I wanted to make first conceptual strategic comment about the opportunity for this group, the energy frontier group to really, really make the case at Snowmass for accelerated superconducting accelerate from elements, because here it is.
16:12:00 I agree there are several priorities for accelerators but we cannot look at the majority of future accelerator, without the magnets of key component.
16:12:15 And it's possibly you know and it's fun. That's one of the most challenging and fundamental components of the majority Josephson accelerators. And, Unfortunately, this is a message that the, whereas CERN has very well
16:12:34 received, and that investing and Frank can confirm this investing been under more.
16:12:43 I don't know, something in the next five years, only for admins.
16:12:50 We in us, do you doesn't seem to have to feel it as a high priority, some reason in hp.
16:12:58 So, hope that this Namaste process can rectify these wise, all the multi decade in the US has made will be lost.
16:13:08 Also in reference to.
16:13:11 I would like to remind everybody that a century has clearly shown that from discovery of material, obviously, theatre to its implementation of scale applications.
16:13:26 You've never had before decades and decades of work.
16:13:30 So, this is what I recently discovered, and then I have a good potential however we are never going to see much of these commercialized before that comes from.
16:13:45 In addition, in addition, I would caution. Any, any counter, you know, to believe that because there is young, the researcher working on something without any previous experience that is morning routine, we're going to see results.
16:14:14 Since is discovered.
16:14:16 We can eat at the level of one or 200 researchers that start from scratch. So this is another message of hope that you can transfer to do it because i don't know i mean we are in good dreams for it up.
16:14:35 And we are still Stumbling on nonsense concepts.
16:14:40 So, that's my
16:14:45 yeah thanks about your line factor. Abs research I just want to mention that we were trying to kind of develop a network you know with other academic institutions as well as some industry and you're right i mean just having one or two people at the lab
16:15:01 in one day is not going to do it has to be much aggressive effort.
16:15:07 So fundraise by Greg Wilson, please.
16:15:16 Hi.
16:15:18 Thanks for your patience all that basically any of these X Factor concepts are expensive and the one thing that struck me is that eventually the f1 gets built somewhere then then things will, things will change so I was wondering, given this 2065 timeline
16:15:37 What time would be in a position to decide to build a 100 kilometer ring with whatever superconducting magnets that you thought you had, and whether that could get to 100 TV or not and what would be the initial start date for that, if one would, for example,
16:15:55 have my own see going forward in Japan, and maybe when declined to do FCC Ed.
16:16:02 So could it be along earlier than 2065.
16:16:06 And what would be the maximum manager in energy of this FCC hHc to the question to Frank, Frank about 2064 instead.
16:16:20 You can always been a Tesla name is we can probably build $5,000 and so then we have the energy.
16:16:31 Or we can build a 200 kilometer tunnel but not that CERN and then we get the. Yes.
16:16:36 Then we could start today.
16:16:41 Protests on I guess that are out there sort of in 10 years time.
16:16:47 Yes.
16:16:49 This is allowed here.
16:16:53 I have a comment on grounds question.
16:16:57 The, the decisions by CERN Council.
16:17:03 Concerning the SEC feasibility study are very clear that the financial feasibility focuses on the first stage.
16:17:16 sec and the tunnel.
16:17:18 So, it's well understood that the
16:17:24 geeks factory electric factory factory project is a is the first stage that wants to be funded, and that it is worthwhile in its own right.
16:17:47 It's of course important to study and to develop for the FCC hh which is the ultimate goal, but it is clear that the first thing to approve and fund is the first stage of the project.
16:17:55 So I think it's important to ask one question at a time otherwise we just stop everything you know it's as if you say I do a 250. tv linear collider and the main reason I do it is because I can reach one and a half TV.
16:18:14 Then, the cost, you want to get is the cost of the 250 gV project.
16:18:20 And then you let the next step come in its own time.
16:18:32 Thank you, Alan related question then to both, Ellen. And, and from consumer one.
16:18:37 Given the financial feasibility of all big machines kind of one of the machines is in question so electron positron or VP or whatever.
16:18:51 And given the fact that seemingly world community really wants to have Higgs factor in that machine. So, could the code for example lab three be in a viable option for because it's a factor of five cheaper and despite the luminosity as law by factor for.
16:19:10 It says still kind of much better in terms of, you know, cost of single Kickstarter kicks bear, or kicks Higgs particle production so it's still kind of on the back of your mind that it's an option or not because you know $2 billion project is much cheaper
16:19:27 than $12 billion project.
16:19:34 I mean I learned IVF opposed to, let's see. So I think for me it's always an option but maybe it's not the most favor.
16:19:43 And we, we submitted it to the European strategy in 2013 for whenever it was and it was not it was not chosen as a big option and it didn't appear in the last strategy at all.
16:20:00 Maybe three sizes luminosity of file see, at least.
16:20:03 Yeah, but I think the important point of the lab three, which the reason why it was not kept in the books for the strategy of 2012, and the same for 2017 or 2018, is that it does not reach the top quality threshold.
16:20:27 And so the whole program of precision measurements, is is not so solid, as it is when you can include a precedent measurement of the top quad mass.
16:20:40 The other reason is that
16:20:44 if you think of running the HLHC until 2040, you still cannot put in the left three until another five or six years later.
16:20:55 And so you're pushing the start of the Hicks factory to till 2050 or so.
16:21:10 I think that those are practical reasons and scientific reasons which making made it such that the lab three was not kept
16:21:12 might come back.
16:21:22 Nobody bits anything's under 2050 then again and
16:21:22 our priorities to have the field kind of survive this next the next big step what's the next big machine, whatever it is, and this little details like again details like top physics or no top physics, I think they're indeed kind of might become secondary.
16:21:41 That's why that's why here at thermal up with Federal Law Group.
16:22:03 Yeah, let me, I mean that's why I think if CCC or one of the linear ones workout with hundred 20 megahertz per meter we can certainly go to the top threshold.
16:22:07 Even if you are fine. If you cannot go to find a gv so
16:22:13 you can do but of course it will take years in a lot more time, but it can definitely go to the top of the show, point is that the left three is way cheaper than any extractor discussed so far.
16:22:28 And it's comparable to Lh, which is another kind of relatively inexpensive, no visibility, which nobody likes seemingly.
16:22:39 And on the left three is a good set factory, and that that's definitely a good possibility the main things that gets in the way of the jealousy.
16:22:48 Yeah.
16:22:49 I, you know, I mean better us kind of uniformity is supported by by all the troops.
16:23:09 Well I think we do have to ask the question of At what point does the integrated luminosity no longer, give us significant improvements in understanding various couplings granted the Higgs self coupling does seem to eat something above three out of barns,
16:23:27 but I think that's going to come down over, over the next few runs.
16:23:35 Yeah, but it's certainly way into 2013, so we can probably try to understand a little bit better as is troubling time when it will become unacceptable along, but I would agree with all ends at this moment so it's probably pushing opportunity to remove
16:23:53 anything from the panel to attest to late 20s 30s.
16:23:59 Yeah, and maybe a better use of LSC tunnel might be a neon Collider, that's an option.
16:24:07 They see but when I when I raised. Yep. Thank you. Yeah, I think I would like to make two comments I mean one is one is one of the energy.
16:24:15 I completely disagree about a statement that it may be, at one point, irrelevant whether they go to the top special or not, I think the the center of mass energy of the plus or minus collider is the defining together with the luminosity defining property
16:24:32 of this machine, and with maybe polarization and and defines what kind of physics you do, and it's it's, therefore, yeah that chick proposes to go to the top threshold.
16:24:45 And is he has a clear path to go to top threshold and beyond its top physics physics physics, it's a complete Hicks physics program with measuring the topics you cover coupling with measuring the himself coupling.
16:25:00 I mean, A Higgs factory. It's not like a bee factory you go to one energy and you produce zillions of bees and then your physics program is done for Hicks Physics for a complete program you have to go to higher energies.
16:25:14 So that's, that's number one. And the second comment is.
16:25:20 I would, I would be careful to discuss costs in terms of all these machines are somehow expensive Yes, they are all in the billion dollar range. But some of these machines have been scaled down, and we had our wings clipped.
16:25:37 And in our high flying plans we are very serious read be used after talking to the funding agencies, because they told us go home. Yeah, $10 billion is completely outrageous go home.
16:25:51 Come back with a less expensive machine, I don't say cheap but with an affordable machine. And this is why we have machines which are in the six $7, billion range and and that's not even the cost of an empty tangle of a circular machine.
16:26:08 Yeah, and there's not a single magnet, not a single cavity and an empty hundred kilometer.
16:26:17 FCC tunnel. And we have to keep that in mind. Now, and so, so it's it's everything is expensive but some are more expensive.
16:26:30 Empty tonight is about 5 billion, according to the estimate optimistically.
16:26:37 Okay lows we have a couple of magnitude projects.
16:26:52 Okay, so we only have a few minutes left so let's see if anyone else because we have a quick question to the speakers, except push but given that you guys are from Europe, and we are in the US, in the kind of organizing this energy frontier and it's very
16:27:00 different to your discussions.
16:27:03 Do you have any, you know expectations or requests to the Snowmass process what do you see is happening here what you like with you, potentially would like to kind of emphasize, any comments on that, in that regard.
16:27:17 Start with banner.
16:27:20 Oh yeah, I think, I think that's, that's quite key I think what what what is needed of be appreciated from the smallest processes, first of all a clear statement what what the physics, but the physics go about the physics priorities are from us.
16:27:41 Point of View from the US high energy physics community, to make here that, whether it makes sense or for Japanese to go ahead with their plans, you know that they wait for confirmation in particular the ministries to finance people there, they need to
16:28:02 hear from from other communities that this is really universally regarded as the one important thing.
16:28:11 And that's, that's definitely needed. Okay, stainer.
16:28:16 Yeah, I think, I think us in US and Canada.
16:28:31 America is have a special role because the six factories are promoted, either in Asia or Europe. So in some ways you are independent.
16:28:34 And you can go either way. Or maybe you want to go both ways. But, but I think that's, that's one part that I think is quite important, what Snowmass come from opposite, and.
16:28:49 And the other thing I really think is, I gotta like there's no much process, we get a little bit lost in our timescales I feel and talk about his Bs and hundred years and then, I think, you know, to make predictions 15 years down the road, I think, in
16:29:05 unfortunately, we will not see that. Look at the stupid stuff. So I think, to bring the time scale back to something which is reasonable for our field is another area where as normal as small as process, can, can be important I think is very very important
16:29:26 that you make an effort to get x factory, one way or another.
16:29:31 on a clearer path during your process it, Frank.
16:29:40 Yes, yes, I agree. Stein that so I think you can go one way or the other, or you can see it on three different machines, but probably probably ultimately ultimately after the Hicks it probably one later future I'm excited in the US, I suppose.
16:29:58 So, I guess you also want to be powerful post expects of the future in the US.
16:30:06 Maybe just as a side effects but there any hope for FTC would of course for my side would be very much back come to of course.
16:30:13 Well for any machine, I think actually that has a lot of synergy and probably technological advance will help any of these colors.
16:30:28 Good.
16:30:27 So Bloody Mary says he says he forgot to mention there's also the EIC so there's a lot of synergy with EIZP can somehow get this, we are constructing a profit.
16:30:41 If you can profit, maybe make use of the synergy said would be also very much.
16:30:49 Look, let's finish on these positive. Know that look at least electron, I am collider is being sort of approved and progressing this mass construction to start soon.
16:31:03 So, thanks everyone for for connecting so especially thanks to the speakers for all their very nice presentation so they will be available on my web site, and they will remind, we will have up with a little bit different, or for brevity discussions.