15:08:26 experiments that prove each of the components of a potential Collider in the PWFA case they've been constructing a new facility faster to which will soon begin operation.
15:08:36 And that will allow us to do this experimental design and prototyping of elements.
15:08:41 And I think the technologies and the r&d. To date, are at the point where we are now ready to start these sort of integrated design studies for colliders that are sort of outlined at the bottom here so the idea is that we're developing the components
15:08:56 things like admittance preservation, the ability to efficiently and effectively transfer energy from Dr themes whether laser or electron beams into plasmas studies of staging have multiple stages.
15:09:08 And then we're also pursuing at the same time, near term applications that will prove the utility of these and which has a lot of commonality with the collider in terms of their requirements.
15:09:17 And then that starts to position us for future studies designed the future studies and facilities for positron studies which have already started. And then for studies of potential collider concepts based on these types of systems which are shown at the
15:09:35 top here. So, this is just an example of the recent experimental progress since the last Snowmass which has been very rapid. So, both LWFA and PWFA object demonstrated high quality multi gv beams and what's shown at the right is an example of an hf beam
15:09:52 from a single 20 centimeter stage, using a pedal watt laser pulse from WPA, there's also been some very nice. Similar beams from pw phase.
15:10:02 At the same time, there have been proof of principle demonstrations that you can combine multiple stages, taking the beam from one plasma accelerator refocusing it with high gradient focusing in a plasma lens in centimeters to couple of the beam from
15:10:16 one plasma structure into another plasma structure and to us yet another plasma plasma mirrors who couple this driver for that second stage in this case the laser into that second stage so that you can combine two modules, all at the centimeter scale
15:10:30 to preserve high gradients. At the same time, other exciting things have been developed including the ability to optimize beam loading. This was demonstrated in the TWFA to enable uniform high efficiency acceleration including transfer efficiencies as
15:10:46 high as the 46% with very low energy spread.
15:10:50 At the same time, structure Wakefield's have also made strong progress with demonstration of very high gradients, and great potential.
15:10:57 This has been complemented by some of these early applications coming online so fel lazing has been demonstrated at 27 nanometre by a group in China using LWFA.
15:11:08 And there's also been demonstration at for Scotty.
15:11:11 Using the pw FA drivers.
15:11:14 And these are just a few examples. There's also been strong progress in positron LWFA hollow channels for low emissions groups, and sources at the point one micron level with a path to nanometre class.
15:11:26 So with this progress the community has also been running the latest one second.
15:11:30 You talked about two minutes left.
15:11:32 Okay, thank you. The community has also been addressing the limits on this type of technology and showed that shapes bunches can be used to effectively accelerate views with that energy spread growth that I on motion can mitigate transfer exposing instabilities,
15:11:47 and that we can do strong plasma focusing to address final focusing and address scattering losses. And this is these are just a few examples of the other issues that you see listed here I won't have time to cover them all.
15:12:00 But while there are additional technical challenges that continue to require r amp D including the efficiency of staging and the alignment tolerances that are required.
15:12:09 It's important to note that it appears at this point that there are not fundamental limits to this technology and so that really will be limited by wall plug power.
15:12:18 And in that context it's important to note that the short beans that are produced by plasma and advanced structure accelerators do reduce power requirements by putting us into the quantum beam Sterling regime and I have additional material on that for
15:12:29 the discussion section if we want it. While high gradients could enable practical energy recovery. And so all of this indicates that these technologies are capable of 15 TV level gradients.
15:12:40 So we have additional material that we can discuss during the discussion section on beam delivery systems, which can also be based on plasma technologies to deliver a comparable compactness.
15:12:51 And so, coming out of these initial collider studies we've established that there are collider regimes accessible to all of the advanced accelerator technologies.
15:13:01 They're documented and so mad fellow wise, and they indicate a series of collider options that could be available from the, from the TV level all the way up through the 15 TV level, developing a sequence of plasma structure based technologies from a structures
15:13:17 structures the accelerator themselves to the beam sources to plasma lenses and beam delivery for increased compactness and performance as things go on.
15:13:28 And it's also important to note that while there's been incredible advances in this field that continues to be very competitive. There's been huge investment in Europe and Asia, including recent half billion dollar class investment in new facts.
15:13:41 Yeah, but the US r&d base continues to create opportunities for our leadership, including in high repetition rate systems, and in positron acceleration and in near term applications.
15:13:50 So with that, I'll close and say that I think that all of this indicates that it's appropriate that we engage with the energy frontier on advanced leptons signatures at the 1015 TV level for fault tolerant polarized electrons and positrons and for gamma
15:14:06 gamma, and to organize towards an integrated design study based on these elements, the leverage the potential advantages of advanced accelerator systems in short beans and in potential energy recovery and the potential to reuse facilities of near term
15:14:20 linear colliders like the IOC or like a Fermilab site filler to reach in the future much higher energies, while at the same point possibly having the possibility to deliver high performance components for other collider components for other collider concepts.
15:14:34 And so we hope to engage with you today on how to do that high energy physics signature studies that will be important to guys accelerator r&d. Thank you.
15:14:45 Thank you very much Cameron so it was very interesting talk I'm sure there will be questions. That's great. That was the idea.
15:14:53 And let's proceed with our second presentation by Downtown. Downtown Can you please share your slides.
15:15:01 And you should start
15:15:08 We could not hear you.
15:15:16 About now. Yes we can hear you now we see your slides and full screen. Perfect. Okay. Great.
15:15:21 Thanks.
15:15:24 Yeah, so I'll make the goal of my talk is to give you a brief overview of basic physics computer colliders.
15:15:33 So I will focus on more general considerations rather than particular proposals. And, you know, being using some of the studies but also will be using a lot of kind of order of magnitude estimates and a simple scaling, so I will try to just directly give
15:15:52 you the punch lines and if you wanted to know more, please ask me and also have some backup slides. And I'll also briefly comment on what are the sort of the bare minimum requirement versus what is needed and for a more comprehensive physics program.
15:16:11 So the main physics case, I think for a lot of the future kind of proposals centers around two aspects. One is the new physics associated with electric scale naturalness considerations maybe other related new physics.
15:16:28 And, hey self coupling as well. and the second aspect is dark matter, in particular, testing the wind paradigm, and perhaps probes into into Dark Sector.
15:16:39 Now this is a very oversimplification of the full physics program is can be actual core physics program can be much richer.
15:16:48 And on the other hand that these two basic directions usually typically frames the basic physics case.
15:16:57 Okay, so we have two kinds of colliders basically to to get to those goals and electron Collider, and a photon collider will be similar to a laptop collider but it was somewhat narrower physics program and slightly, a few more words to say about it later.
15:17:16 And then there's a Hadron Collider. And there are two kinds of approaches one is try to direct produced new physics particles, and the needed have a high energy providers and the other one is using precision measurement.
15:17:31 Okay.
15:17:34 So let me begin with the electric week part.
15:17:38 So, first, precision coupling measurement. So this is going after a kind of a deviation, which goes like the last week.
15:17:51 Scales squared divided by the new Felix
15:17:55 case score and an average you see can achieve the measurement, typically at a few percent this probing up the scale about the TV.
15:18:06 And now if we wanted to go up to another order of magnitude to 10 TV. And this means that usually we need a premier level of accuracy. So, okay, so please keep that in mind, number in mind and.
15:18:24 And at that time colliders in particular this kind of measurement is usually statistics limited.
15:18:29 is usually statistics limited. Okay, so, you know, for example, and you can see why a lot of the proposed the Higgs factories needs 10 to the six six, because this one. The goal is to achieve the premier level accuracy.
15:18:44 The goal is to achieve the premier level accuracy. So, not measuring coupling constant is not the only way to go after, you know, this kind of new physics, we can also prioritize the fact of the span of a new physics on higher dimensional operators.
15:18:59 And there are other observable so you can you can go after and, particularly, these operators will become more important there in fact will become more important on higher energies.
15:19:11 And therefore, you don't have to make that as a precise measurement, if you can you know measure them at higher and this means that is good to you know measure these make some of these measurement that high energy.
15:19:20 So for a laptop collider typically the reach can be, you know, about a 10 times the center of mass of the laptop Collider at Hadron Collider, you know, usually with the actual part conclusion energy as much Lord and the center of mass dementia, or was
15:19:36 or was this a measurement.
15:19:47 Still sensitive to a new physics on the scale of the actually central mass energy hydroxide. Okay, so this is some examples for Higgs coupling don't want to go into details of it, just to tell you without the, you know, this is a in tend to just show
15:20:02 You better it's possible. And, yeah, so for low energy Hicks factories, there are dominated by ch high energy, greater than five or 600 GV is really dominated by WWE fusions but they are actually sensitive to somewhat different couplings, and the measurement
15:20:19 that electron collider tends to be more model independent, such as wisdom measurement, see worse and so on.
15:20:27 I should also mention that this is happening but if we we also have a terrorism factory.
15:20:36 Also some option of scanning the TT boss threshold, we can also improve significantly. As a you know tweak precision measurements.
15:20:41 And his self coupling is another important question associated example is electronic Chris foundation. And so, and a typical a typical benchmark, is that we wanted to eventually achieve a few percent on measurement and for the Hicks triple triple Hicks
15:20:58 coupling. And this is typically needed a TV that Tom collider hungry.
15:21:04 TV PP Cologne, for example, okay.
15:21:09 And we can also go after the search for those new physics particles, direct production that may have something to do with the electroweak scale. This is a typical example, Susie stop and other you know top partners reaches seminar.
15:21:26 So Hadron Collider, which is typically about 10% of its central mass energy right so and and for that calculator we can hope to go to the cinematical threshold, which is a half of the central mass energy, and the photon collider will be similar, but it
15:21:42 it can only produce. Keep in mind that a cone and produce charged particles. So.
15:21:49 All right, so you can ask her what is the scale we are aiming for. Okay so, so, you know, and the one of those argument is fine tuning basically you're comparing with the pics you comparing Hicks mass was the new physics, math skills, maybe, multiply
15:22:13 by a factor. If this ratio is a small. This means that this model tends to predict a much heavier kicks mass. And then we measure that means not so good.
15:22:16 And so what is the new physics scale to a man by so I mean this is a, I'll have to say that this is only a theoretical expectation, what I just said it, although it's extremely, extremely well motivated one.
15:22:31 However, it's not from prediction, if you really wanted to get some kind of measure your mind is no maybe this is the semi empirical statement is that a number of years, that's still left, perhaps is the percentage of it is the same as, as this small
15:22:42 number. Okay, so the currently I think we are holding the new film school at along the TV, and therefore the fine tuning is about a few to 10%.
15:23:00 And this means that the of all the ideas, only a few or 10% will perhaps survive. And this is an uncomfortable, I would say, and the next milestone therefore, is the 10s of TV, which pushed a fine tuning down to less than 10 minus three.
15:23:17 I think in many people's mind that this is much more definitive test.
15:23:22 Okay, Next topic I wanted to mention is dark matter.
15:23:27 So this is just as some very simple, that's perhaps the simplest wimp model.
15:23:33 And it's very predictive it all the interactions is fixed by the standard a model.
15:23:45 Week, you'd actually engage interactions, have a very definitive prediction about what the mass of those particles are, they are all in the range of TVs, and it's all top reach for the RTC it's very difficult for direct production as well.
15:23:54 And so Villa for laptop Collider, and, you know, given high luminosity.
15:23:59 And the laptop collider can produce this kind of a dark matter, almost close to half of the central mass energy for Hadron Collider, it is lost its, it can be actually quite difficult.
15:24:12 So, will be only a few percent of Central mass energy is just based on some simple scanning by looking at this reach. So perhaps the first, therefore we need for Hadron Collider when you're really hungry TV ish to get to test these, these models were
15:24:27 from that time collider we need 10s of t. Uncle actors to actually test these models.
15:24:35 And, you know, the these future fighters I'll also give us a good window to look into tax collectors through these kind of top portable couplings.
15:24:46 For example kicks can dictate into can have a couple links to some Dark Sector also Zeebo zone candy cane to Dark Sector and these are, you know, promising ways of pro probing attack sector and the sensitivity to these kind of things are exactly proportional
15:25:02 to the number of chicks or the bozos that can be produced.
15:25:06 So, if we want to have a benchmark we can do some very rough estimate, you know if the if the Higgs, for example interaction with the Dark Sector is actually mediated by some 10s of TV, again this 10 TV number, new physics and very roughly the branching
15:25:25 ratio Hicks to talk sector can be, you know, less than a percent to 10 to the minus three so kicks factory because it tends to produce 10 to the six exposures impressive for the sensitivity could be as good as 10 to the minus five Hadron Collider actually
15:25:42 produced much more cases.
15:25:44 But it's reaches a somewhat more depends on the decay product guess Hadron Collider and more background had to make a model independent statement.
15:25:54 Yeah, you can do a similar estimated for see to Dark Sector and, you know, Tara Zn principle can have a sensitivity. That's great sensitivity into probing the stock centers.
15:26:09 So the last thing I wanted to comment on is some consideration but luminosity.
15:26:17 So first, Hadron Collider. So this is, you know, just basically estimating the game, in terms of of the reach of the mass of a new physics, compare with a stream or sad about hugging me.
15:26:31 What you see so the vertical axis is the ratio of the game.
15:26:35 And, yeah, so so the sort of horizontal axis is some, some time and the various curves from plants was just employee number wrong clients that with the various luminosity.
15:26:48 You know the first feature you should see is that there's a very fast game at the beginning does, you know, distinct feature of other Hadron Collider.
15:26:58 This means that you don't really need a lot of luminosity to achieve a big step already.
15:27:04 Right. So in terms of numbers, so I think tend to the study for human is seems to be already doing a reasonable job, 400 TV so much higher than when it was needed for additional measurements such as himself coupling, where if you wanted to go to a higher
15:27:21 energy Hadron Collider, maybe 10 2035 or even 10 to the 636 will be, you know, needed to really match the game, and for laptop collider scenarios, it's a it's a little bit easier to define because the signal there is cleaner.
15:27:42 So, one can imagine that there is a possible minimum scenario, in the sense that they will if the new physics signal is so distinct that we don't really have to produce that many of them to discover them so maybe a basic requirement, it could be just,
15:28:08 will produce outer 10 new physics signals. And this is what certainly miss some other important physics, but perhaps that may be a good starting point, if we have that kind of machine. Of course the optimal scenario will be, you know, we can cover it really difficult cases such as dark matter so interesting so on.
15:28:15 interesting so. So this is just another indicative plot for these two scenarios with various energy of laptop gliders I took electric cross section to be around it actual week cross section and the bands of is that I just burying the cross section by
15:28:34 a factor of 10.
15:28:36 And you see that the Illuminati still scales with the central mass square but the sort of the minimum scenario is only only requires about a 10 to the minus four of of the luminosity needed for a more optimal scenario.
15:28:53 Okay, so I think that's all I wanted to say so this is just a. I tried to fit all the punch lines in one page.
15:29:01 And I won't read it to you. So, just for your reference. Thank you.
15:29:06 and now thank you very much for very nice overview is nice plots again I scribbled a few questions here so but I will wait until we're here for the next presentation and look, why not me.
15:29:19 Yeah. So, just to. Yeah, good. So, Let's now move now to Thomas riser presentation.
15:29:28 So Thomas was asked by his accelerator for convenience to lead the accelerated implementation.
15:29:35 Task Force and he will be talking about what this task force is about and what their current status and plans so Thomas please.
15:29:54 Okay. I think you can hear me now. Yes we can.
15:30:02 Okay, sorry.
15:30:02 Okay, so as Dimitri said, I'm going to give you a status report on this, what the implementation Task Force has been doing.
15:30:11 It was created as a by the accelerated frontier convenience.
15:30:21 Earlier this year, and with the goal to look at the question is what are the time and cost scales of the r&d and associate test facilities, as well as the time and cost scales of of future collider facility and in fact early on we decided to limit our
15:30:41 task to collider facilities, only what you see on this slide is pictures of the task force members.
15:30:50 We have increased the membership by a few people. Recently, and that includes two more junior members Marlene and Spencer, as well as Sarah Christina.
15:31:07 To get a more diverse and a more complete view from the community.
15:31:15 So, there are clearly a number of possible projects, and they have already been listed.
15:31:24 And by the previous speakers and mainly.
15:31:28 One option. That was actually has not been mentioned early but was brought up, over, over the last year is the URL option, which focuses, particularly on more any energy efficient version of such a large collider facility.
15:32:09 So, what the task is of this task force is mainly to do comparisons of the various parameters of these facilities,
15:32:00 which includes also cost of oh that's always a very difficult thing to do, but also schedule, also not not easy, as well as our end.
15:32:13 We, the first thing we did was developed metrics that we then send out to the, to the proponents. And as with, and asked him to submit filled out spreadsheets, along with those metrics.
15:32:32 And that has happened so.
15:32:35 So I went through the charge items mainly already.
15:32:45 So, We are
15:32:44 at.
15:32:46 I think, step three, or at least step two, we have contacted all the proponents we have collected. Those spreadsheets.
15:32:59 And we have started to work with some opponents to refine those submissions.
15:33:11 And let me see. Yeah, the finally what our goal of course is to document all of this post the metrics the processes and the conclusions at the Summer Snowmass meeting, which is now next year in form of us for white paper.
15:33:31 So, we have in fact not taking a pause, we have continued to work throughout the pause of the Snowmass effort.
15:33:42 As I mentioned already we focusing on collider facilities.
15:33:45 We have developed the metrics and collected a total of 21 spreadsheet so far.
15:33:53 They are, and we have started to form subcommittees subgroups.
15:34:01 To address these four topics, namely, one is on size complexity power consumption and environmental impact.
15:34:09 The next is on physics reach or physics impact and we just heard, Colin Powell.
15:34:16 What, what are some of those ways of how to do that.
15:34:23 But this is going to be quite difficult and we need to work together with with, particularly the energy frontier convenience, on this. Another subgroup is on technical risk technical readiness and validation validation projects.
15:34:44 And finally a cost and schedule subgroup.
15:34:48 So this is underway.
15:34:52 We will also categorize the proposals that we are receiving into four categories.
15:35:01 The first one is existing facilities so we don't receive any proposals for that. But we selected the LHC and XVL as a reference
15:35:15 project to basically guide the proponents on on how to fill out those spreadsheets, and then proposals that have a TD or and or a CD are already at these are pretty advanced proposals.
15:35:35 These are pretty advanced proposals. The third categories proposals that don't have a TD aren't or a CDR, but are reasonably well thought through, and and are mostly based on existing technologies, so there isn't like an unproven technology that still
15:35:52 needs to be developed as part of that proposal,
15:35:57 an estimate of component counters also would exist in that case.
15:36:02 And then the fourth category is future concepts and ideas that are more speculative.
15:36:11 Presently, we have a tentative schedule to produce a draft report.
15:36:20 By the end of this year, which we then can share with proponents the AF and the EF groups for feedback.
15:36:31 And then looking at maybe a final report by by March.
15:36:36 And then of course we have the discussions that report will be in the form of a white paper.
15:36:43 And then we have to discussions next summer.
15:36:47 So just as an example.
15:36:50 Since our main task is really comparing the various proposals.
15:36:54 As an example, I'm showing a spreadsheet where we started to list all the submitted proposals.
15:37:02 In terms of various parameters beam energy or center of mass energy, of course.
15:37:10 And this case also, for this particular spreadsheet focuses on power consumption so this is the estimated side power consumption, shown in this column.
15:37:23 Being power.
15:37:25 Well, and then we can look at the ratios. And then finally of course luminosity. And you can see here, luminosity varies greatly, of course, and.
15:37:42 As expected, it drops rather quickly. as you grow up in energy.
15:37:48 And then finally, the major figure of merit and is how much luminosity can be produced. In this case, parasite power for example, or for beam energy.
15:38:06 We need to think of how to fold energy into this figure of merit, as well, to make that maybe a little more relevant. But what you can see in this, in this table already is that in this last column.
15:38:22 There are a large variations by couple orders of magnitude.
15:38:27 From areas, various concepts in terms of luminosity can be achieved.
15:38:31 For a certain amount of sight power energy consumption, anywhere from, you can see
15:38:41 in this areas here it's generally
15:38:46 like 20 to 32 per megawatt, whereas you can hear, get in for these concepts it's more like 20 to 34, per megawatt of sight power.
15:39:00 So this slide shows linear collider proposals as well as circular collider proposals for ee plus c minus colliders.
15:39:13 On this slide and showing first PP colliders Hadron Collider us, various as well as a more speculative concept, and then Wakefield colliders, and then your colleagues are shown here.
15:39:35 You get can again see that for any of these concepts, none of them can reach attended to 34 per, per megawatt. So, again, this, this parameter varies greatly for the various concepts.
15:39:57 And then just for completeness.
15:40:00 Just want to show the various proposals that we have received with together with her and personal point of contact, as well. So these are the Hicks factory concept and proposals.
15:40:15 And these are the high energy concept to propose as both a plus or minus as well as Hadron Collider, and neon colliders, as well as Wakefield colliders.
15:40:28 So, finally, my summary is that, as mentioned, our task force has continued its work during the pause parameter spreadsheets, were collected for major proposals of future colliders.
15:40:44 But I want to say that we are still accepting additional proposals, as well as updates to two proposals that have been submitted.
15:40:53 Over the next couple of months I think with the restart of Snowmass, this is appropriate that the, that we are open to collect more proposals.
15:41:07 And as I mentioned, tentative schedule is to have a draft report by the end of this year.
15:41:13 Thank you
15:41:16 I'm going to thank you very much for this very nice presentation, you another time. So, but I think it's provided a lot of useful information so no because dogs were.
15:41:31 But speakers available.
15:41:32 It's time to ask questions Who is we discussed, if you could please raise your hand in zoom. So, we will sort of guide the discussion. Well you thinking on your question let me start maybe from one question to Thomas.
15:41:46 So my because you mentioned that with us to welcoming proposals and one of the talks yesterday for example was about your website fillers, which I did not see in your table, so maybe it would be useful to set well defined that line.
15:42:04 When the until what time proposals could be submitted as it was there might be a mismatch.
15:42:11 Right, so I said and whatever it is, yeah, December 1 or January 1. Yeah, sounds like a good time because we want to aim for a draft report by the end of the year.
15:42:24 And so we need some time to include new proposals.
15:42:30 Look, I think it's it's it's it has to be communicated through as many as possible justice, there is no sort of complains when someone will say oh I see what I can do it next year.
15:42:43 Right. Okay.
15:42:45 But formally all these signals six or seven sets us options which, which were presented yesterday they were not submitted to it of because because we work with we got so far right.
15:42:57 So they need to be either communicated somehow, or what, I don't know.
15:43:10 Some call this parameter list should be formulated properly and sense to the idea, and believe that kind of homework for for Pushpa and the proponents of this secular options.
15:43:15 Right.
15:43:17 But, yeah, no i i mean we have this spreadsheet, a well defined spreadsheet.
15:43:24 And I think all that's needed is to fill this in for these new options, and also I've asked the other proponents as well to submit a is a short description of the proposal as well.
15:43:40 Right.
15:43:44 Okay.
15:43:44 Thomas I think that's a good introduction and they can see the pushback he has actually you can appear so yeah I mean I just wanted to mention that the PP collider site filler we had actually submitted an ally I mean we had an ally which kind of covered
15:44:00 several options including the Mian Collider, you know from labcyte, once I don't think we had the secretary policymakers I'm not sure, but I don't know how these machines were picked to go into the table to the request to the proponents for parameters,
15:44:19 let me said that we picked the ones that were proposed but.
15:44:25 So the site filler PP was actually proposed so I'm not sure why it was left out that image.
15:44:33 Right. Well, I can add maybe it was hidden in the, in that lawyer, because although Frank had actually picked it up and showed last year, the community planning meeting but, you know, just mentioning that we would be happy to provide the parameters for
15:44:51 the ones that we think. Thank you.
15:44:53 Good.
15:44:56 The selection of those proposals was done by the various AF groups.
15:45:02 Right, and they picked, and this defaulted it to us. So, but it's open. So, yeah, thanks Thomas Thank you.
15:45:11 Good. Push by anything else on.
15:45:17 No, I think that's fine. Yeah. Very good. So, speaker.
15:45:21 Yeah, I don't see Emilio connected but he did say yesterday that they have a early draft available for those who want to look at for the CQ, which may have what you need to get some actually Michael is step up so he can hit him.
15:45:38 Yes, I think, the purpose of this meeting. Um, I think we'll make contact with Thomas about what spreadsheet should be filled in for this new design and that would be updates of some of the things that he already has.
15:45:52 So we will get on it and hopefully we'll get to that soon.
15:45:58 Good luck. I'm glad that we now know when and where and who to contact.
15:46:12 And I'm really pleased to hear from Thomas okay it's an open process whoever has an ideas should feel free to submit them to Thomas and his team will add to the list, and to be noted here that Cameron mentioned in his slides that the secular assumptions
15:46:22 for advancement or colliders could be considered as well, but so far but if nobody even talked to you guys to put f6 guys about that right camera.
15:46:33 That's right. I mean I think that given the stage of r&d on events accelerator concepts.
15:46:41 I think that the geometric gradients indicate that advanced accelerator concepts could be used to upgrade a future formula website filler in a similar way that they could be used to upgrade IOC my personal view is that we probably don't have to generate
15:46:54 additional lines in the table for that. Because, you know, we have lines in the table for one 315 TV, and we can assess with the formula books and I would love to do that.
15:47:09 You know which of those could fit in as a potential upgrade.
15:47:12 You know, for a future from your website so I think that would be a very productive thing to do.
15:47:22 Yeah, good question for lindo and Tomas simplicity, and it goes.
15:47:27 Linda showed that the kind of useful luminosity range is enormous abroad, he mentioned like could force of magnitude for this for leptin colliders as something we can still to one right and and consider as reasonable the interesting.
15:47:46 I just wonder how we going to judge then various collateral option because so far there was enormous push for luminosity to be as close to this famous formula, a beautiful Intel showed it, what would be the optimal optimal diversity formula right proportional
15:48:03 to s.
15:48:06 And now we hear that the 10 line is 4.01% of that is still a key. So we, you open can of worms, because you just hear that we expanded number of options to consider to site viewers that may be lower limit us to say viewers and.
15:48:21 So how we should, how should we consider that that statement, you know.
15:48:28 Ko Ko judge colliders and they deliver the same energy but spread of living.
15:48:36 I think that the bare bones.
15:48:39 Everyone to mute who are not talking, because the minimum thing is really valuable, I think, you know, I just take a simple electrical week or production cross section just asked for you know I can produce 10 of them.
15:48:56 And you could get a medical special, so So, I mean, it is useful, I think it will be it will setting some interesting you know limit or discover some new articles, if it's there.
15:49:06 And on the other hand that it shouldn't be the end point, I think it's good to have, as the beginning part.
15:49:12 Okay then I hope I made myself clear that. Yeah, so that's that's the, my definition of my minions in that, in that sense, is basically the entrance ticket is your minimal luminosity which you consider the beginning, but of course all colliders collector
15:49:29 proponents is to kind of to kind of say something about the ultimate possibilities as we see them something reasonable kind of reasonably achievable after somewhere for something like that hopefully will be ramping up in
15:49:44 every click is a good path for the accelerator folks I think because we can have a minimum luminosity that will start producing events, and then a path towards your optimal very helpful.
15:49:56 Yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to agree with that statement.
15:50:01 This isn't something that I have realized that the minimum buy in.
15:50:09 For the Illuminati was for orders of magnitude lower than the.
15:50:11 And I think that opens up a lot of possibilities.
15:50:14 Same, because you can now consider stage approaches, where we target high energy TV.
15:50:23 But the initial realization will be a low.
15:50:29 Lower.
15:50:30 Lower luminosity chain. As long as there's a viable upgrade path, highly.
15:50:35 I think that really makes our jobs much more appealing to the women in machine that's useful for business especially, all these concepts based on a plasma event structures.
15:50:49 So I think it gives us a lot to think about.
15:50:53 What is the optimal path for proposal in terms of economics cost savings.
15:51:03 So, this is new information for me.
15:51:14 Medical mental notes commentary about viable path to to clearly minister yesterday status stainer status was talking about Klieg luminosity updates possible.
15:51:21 And I think, quite encouraging to me was to hear that four or 5% of the total cost increase, they can increase the velocity by factor of two by going to factor of two Kira rate.
15:51:31 For example, it's a very simple.
15:51:34 In terms of, you know, technical realization of course costly but not enormous Nicholas. I think 5% cost or factor of to increasing luminosity might be used as a standard, I think it's extremely encouraging us in some sense that there are some color options
15:51:51 allow such such enormously high luminous increase for relatively little money, maybe or, or advanced projects should be kind of considered what what they can do and how much.
15:52:06 I'm afraid that you guys also talking about in a high end find reference but it's not factor of two, Claire represents enormously larger repetition rates to get to, you know, kind of IT managers and empower so sorry empowers the individual cities.
15:52:23 Correct. Right.
15:52:24 That's how you get to highly minister.
15:52:27 Oh, I guess it depends on on where your baseline is certainly relative to where we are right now, the repetition rates for a machine attended to 34 or 20 to 35 are much higher than where we are right now.
15:52:41 Yep, but I think that you know if you're if you're looking at a similar increment to the one that talked about, then you know it would essentially be a two fold increase in repetition rate, or you would be scaling admittance or some other parameters so
15:52:55 you know as Eric said i think i think it does open up some design space if you can start at a fraction of that luminosity but at full energy, and then progressing in a combination of repetition rate admittance focusing and other parameters.
15:53:11 I think it does make a facility realistic on a shorter time scale.
15:53:17 Okay.
15:53:17 Sorry interrupted Thomas. Thomas is just want to comment on that. because, as I mentioned, to my talk.
15:53:28 Will we be looking at some form of a figure of merit, like luminosity per hour, but also the luminosity per dollar. Right.
15:53:38 And I think the important, very important figure of merit to be considered by Snowmass.
15:53:46 And I would hope that the proponents take. Keep that in mind, right and if they can have a proposal that has a better luminosity put dollars, then that's what they should propose.
15:54:01 Right.
15:54:01 And so I think that it's suit for us be this from the task force to the assumption that it. What is proposed is is optimized.
15:54:12 According to the figure of merits.
15:54:15 Right. So it's not just luminosity its energy has to be included as well of course.
15:54:21 And that's a little more difficult but still.
15:54:26 And Thomas.
15:54:32 Thanks, um, you know, I just want to make a quick comment on.
15:54:36 I mean, this range of luminosity ease.
15:54:41 And obviously when you have a range that's a good possibility so you can start in lower and go higher but IBM surely Intel would agree that this is a very rough estimate based on taking a very specific physics sorts of models that you're thinking about
15:54:59 I mean the sense of trying to get the full mass range and if there's a particular particle right there at half the center mass energy. I mean, I think at the same time we should also think about.
15:55:14 For instance, one of the big targets that we know is there in terms of Higgs physics and trying to understand the potential for the Higgs Higgs potential is understanding for instance the cubic and the quarter couplings of the Higgs.
15:55:30 And for instance Lee Intel had a slide and he was like percent level or something like that but there's lots of models that have been developed in the last eight years or so where even if you kind of follow your nose and take the only couplings that we
15:55:43 know about for scalars like the Higgs where that number can be 10 to the minus three is the natural shift in the triple headaches, not 1%, and I have no idea of how to get there.
15:55:56 But at the same time, I mean in terms of optimizing luminosity only about finding a particle with weak interactions that's that half the center a mass.
15:56:06 That worries me a little bit in terms of the one definite return we have is the Higgs and trying to explain how much we can learn about that.
15:56:16 Yeah, I think I agree enough to fulfil decent very, you know, it really depends on what the goal is right so i think if we wanted to, I'm trying to, You know, if there is a starting point, if luminosity does cost a lot.
15:56:30 If there is a starting point. You know, I think, you know, at this sort of a minimum luminosity is that we can still do something we can do top corner searches perhaps we can do you know and so some of the things that we care about, you know, of course,
15:56:45 as I said, you know, the, the ultimate goal should be go up to these, you know, optimal but also it is even better, I think, to achieve full physics potential.
15:56:56 Yeah, I just don't want to say that, you know, you have to start out, like right there. Otherwise what we do. Right. So there is this much lower starting point where I think in a few years, we still learn something, we're still much better if we're going
15:57:12 to something we don't learn.
15:57:20 You know from from Hadron Collider, which you see so I would still go way beyond average see. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure to bring up that devil's advocate point that I think Michael Peskin brought up maybe on the first day or so that I mean in terms
15:57:28 of laying out the theory case for all these. It can't just be about, we want to look for the parameter space that's a little bit further away we want to think of what are the ideas what have we learned and where does that possibly point us.
15:57:42 Michael cuz his hands raised and then after him. Magic Mowgli.
15:57:47 I just continuing this discussion circus known the previous Snowmass.
15:57:52 The me one kilometer group thought about the question what is the minimum energy for let's say a 10 TV new and Collider. The thing that they emphasized more narrow residences.
15:58:03 So sZ like resonance that you could sit on.
15:58:06 With much lower luminosity. Maybe it would be good if a few of us theorists got together a short paper about this question, what is the minimum luminosity and what are the breakpoints for any Collider at let's say 10 to 20 TV.
15:58:32 Um, it would be an interesting exercise and maybe it would be useful to you guys. I agree I think it would be very useful. Looking on various options and that many cases even for sort of better developed options.
15:58:43 Cost is substantially driven by luminosity. So I think of course I agree with what Leon toe and Patrick said you.
15:58:50 The goal of this 10 to 3510 to 36 luminosity is really what you need to do the physics, when these things are exceptions, but it's a place to start.
15:59:01 And if you look on a nice job some machines are doing machines you see the clock sometime you can increase them by orders of magnitude to over a period of time.
15:59:12 But that's that's an option attic.
15:59:17 Yeah, just a, I think we all agree that it's better to be rich and healthy than the poor and sick so, Of course, I guess we physicist would like to have you know everything the butter and the money for the butter, but I think it's important to keep all
15:59:33 those options on the table because at the end.
15:59:45 The choice may not be made by physicist and there might be some limits in the cost or something like that which would actually exclude some of those goals blades options that are mentioned.
15:59:48 So I think it's really important to keep to keep this this this table as as as broad as possible so that when the moment of choice comes, there are options to choose from.
15:59:58 So I think it's a very good exercise what was shown by by Thomas, for example.
16:00:05 Such an interest in that belief, Thomas because a subgroup in his implementation task force which supposed to not precisely but roughly, Judge physics potential for at least for the parameters of the machines given can give an energy and given luminosity
16:00:19 given type of particles.
16:00:21 Understand it will not be as comprehensive as our theory colleagues can do but I just wonder whether they Thomas your sub group members do they talk to Siri frontiers to like downtown and others do you plan to talk to them.
16:00:38 Absolutely. We, we started there to meet with and Tao.
16:00:57 Already I know he already provided a lot of information.
16:00:57 In fact, I think it should be really led by by theorists, right,
16:00:57 because I think that's what the battle is asking that all the options should be kept on the table. And I believe your, your limitations for for example is not going to provide final answer so priority or anything like that but instead of indicate in a
16:01:10 very soft scheme like the color scheme of something kind of current attitudes toward this option or that option or something like that. So, in that case, all options will be kept on the table but will be slightly colored that.
16:01:25 That's my understanding is shooting for.
16:01:29 Absolutely. And I think, I mean the physics impact. I don't see us where we could make too much contribution from make sure that the input is correct.
16:01:44 Right. So unless I really think that we can make a contribution in terms of the cost figure of merit, the power figure of merit and required r&d and technical ways, I think these are areas where we can make a contribution
16:02:04 in the world and then circle.
16:02:08 Yes, I don't want to sound.
16:02:12 And I just joined the discussion but in reference to what Patrick Mowgli just said.
16:02:20 Isn't it true that at the last 2013 Snowmass what Panetta major role in establishing the next us it up vision was the money that was available right.
16:02:35 Because I remember that, that was good for the musical either already have the time and the other options, and also in that.
16:02:58 In those times I seem to remember that this community, also was trying to keep you know as many reasonable options on the table but nothing beats the financial limitation so how are we going to overcome these huge obstacle.
16:03:03 This time around, is there any way that it can be overcome.
16:03:08 With me probably try to answer it. So first, I would say, we should probably well to grade the roles of Snowmass mph is expected to follow. So of course no mas is not making any financial decision so a project that's exactly what prioritization pen or
16:03:29 means 45 which he has to sort of get information like they both from Thomas Task Force.
16:03:36 They just blow guns of finding availability check numbers and somehow come with some decisions and that's what they did back in 2013, like we are not these decisions but they did set.
16:03:48 So my view is no mas is what we should be doing is proposing as many various options work well sort options of course it can understand them and rely on some numbers provided to choose from.
16:04:05 And then we will sort of walk with the five I'm sure they will also have some meetings discussions with proponents.
16:04:14 But that sort of property generic answer but that's how the process worked and is expected to work this time as well.
16:04:23 But the tour, which is seminal I believe, Thomas mentioned several times that the cost figure of merit for different machines is different so and will be at least independently judged by by his task force.
16:04:39 And that might be an input for future thinking whatever way, if I've committee or community or to do something to even to criticize because we don't think the Thomas will provide the final answer.
16:04:52 And I totally agree with you that the cost is extremely important again my own analysis shown that the probability of anything to be built anything expensive to be built inversely proportional to cost square.
16:05:05 So, if the probability of your machine to be built this 1% and you reduce the cost by a factor of two, you gain immediate and you get focused and probability instead of 1%.
16:05:16 So that's extremely extremely important for us to look into the cost numbers and cost too many factors.
16:05:29 Sir Go
16:05:29 dance.
16:05:29 And they say something obvious but I wanted to go back for a second to the last the arguments.
16:05:35 So of course we can we can debate about where the physics be light but I think it's very difficult to predict nature and to say that the new particles will appear a percentage of that energy.
16:05:45 And so it's hard to predict that will find, you know, production of, let's say new scaling says at the sort of mess and, you know, we've been seeing for example at the LHC that the expectations for the fund, for example, strong Susie and so far it didn't
16:06:01 happen.
16:06:02 But we certainly have very powerful tools in front of us right i think manpower laid that out, I mean one of the things is documented but the other thing for example is Higgs and then you believe that he is the portal to new physics.
16:06:15 And so exploring the Higgs is a big thing. So what I'm trying to say is, for the machine that we build, there should be certainly luminosity targets that would allow us to say some to advance our knowledge of the Higgs substantially with respect to what
16:06:31 high luminosity LHC can provide. Right. And if you look at the projections that were made so far for replying with the plus and minus commissions, you will see that they need luminosity.
16:06:41 In order to really substantially supersede five minutes to hc projections.
16:06:49 Now you can argue, of course but merely projections are achievable I think history shows us that we tend to do better than what we project. So if you believe that then I think it's, we should be mindful of the luminosity of course, you know, having a
16:07:05 having an upgrade path is certainly a good thing, but even the minimum targets have to bring some.
16:07:13 Not very narrow physics game so I want, I wanted to say that some unique measurements that substantially advance our knowledge that being, you know if you wish couplings with Quantic or tiling your quantum couplings, you name it, but that's just a point
16:07:30 that I wanted to race.
16:07:38 Yes, thank you sir Good. So
16:07:43 I think it's a good point yeah so Cameron.
16:07:47 Great, thanks.
16:07:49 So I think the Illuminati discussion is is a very important one. And another discussion that I think that it's important to have is the distinctions between different leptons or leptons like articles so you know there's been I would say probably the most
16:08:08 calculations for you on colliders at high energies. Because I think they're the most developed cases there. So if I if I understand the presentation, I think, to a large extent, you know leptons or leptons from, from what I understand, so no electron
16:08:20 positron Yuan's similar signatures if we can deliver the luminosity of the IP so that's one point I'd like to try it with you all.
16:08:28 He touched briefly on gamma gamma which had similar energy reach and some of the signatures, but only access as a subset of the channels.
16:08:37 So that's another option that's on the table, and then a third access, that's interesting to probe is that some of the collider options for leptons or gamma gamma are capable of polarization.
16:08:49 Others are not and so how important is that and so these are things that I hope we can communicate in the Snowmass report, we need to do calculations with the energy in theory frontiers.
16:08:58 And that's one of the one of the things I hope can come out of the discussions today it's how do we plan for that
16:09:07 would be nice to hear from our energy frontier guys in theory guys that come on several times already, Cameron and his colleagues in there for several times already brought up that what we see from, from our point of view from accelerator frontier is
16:09:19 that there are a lot of analysis calculations and discussions go into the understanding and medical conditions at all energies.
16:09:37 While electron question colliders multi TV for example, advanced ones have their own, you know, features like a beam strong and recreate is different, everything is different than.
16:09:41 So far, I believe, the only say input which we provide and really gets useful is energy and luminosity, we are telling them to numbers and nobody's asked for any other details so do you guys care about so how we deliver this beam so for example if you've
16:09:55 been struggling becomes hundred percent that's, that's a real threat for extremely high energy.
16:10:01 Linear colors in plus and minus colliders, how, how will you extract physics and or what are the, you know, figure of merit factors for, for, you know, a plus and minus machines compared to say hey leptons like me on machines.
16:10:17 Would be nice to have some either rough estimates or rule of thumb, you know, laws of how to compare things. Same for gamma gamma was on one Can we hear from Michael disconnect is like a couple couple months ago, there was discussion that gamma gamma
16:10:36 is not that bad, and other family you know, seemed that nobody's talking about that.
16:10:43 Seriously, anywhere.
16:10:45 What, why is that so why don't we, why don't why do, why, why any differently or false does not did not ask us questions about the plus and minus multi TV or gamma gamma of all kinds.
16:10:57 Well, I think the i don't know i mean maybe others can cover as well i think it's just a perception that equals c minus cannot really go to high energy I've never seen a proposal that will go to like 1015 TV from the plus and minus.
16:11:13 And, you know, I also had that that energy as far as I think a new physics probe is concerned, e plus c minus is very similar to mucous membranes. The major difference between the policy minus plus minus 25.
16:11:30 Okay, that that is.
16:11:33 Anyway, I think this is again this is a very broad brushstroke picture so photon I think I already said photon is something has a somewhat narrower physics program.
16:11:45 But you see the energy spread for example take 10 TV moon Collider, and 10 TV advanced linear collider so the difference will be that non color because tend to minus three and it just spread and the electron positron collider will have 50% energy spread
16:12:00 in the center of mass and it just doesn't matter for you guys.
16:12:06 But they potentially have polarization it has to mature about that but I think in terms of energy spread and as far as again as opposed to new physics searches concern.
16:12:15 It doesn't matter that much. Okay, I think, in one place I know energy spread matters lot is the factory you wanted to measure those emails and was and so so but at high very high energy side, probably don't really matter.
16:12:32 I mean, It does matter and to some extent, of course.
16:12:36 But politics can be a serious, serious with.
16:12:40 Yeah, I just want to add on to that I mean, I think, at some level, a lot of these studies haven't been done for thinking about one of the novel things you could do it 10 TV with a left on Collider in terms of really exploiting a lot of the precision
16:12:55 of it so zero Torah thing is, I mean if you tell us what parameters and how they really differ border magnitudes we can start playing with that. But another thing also is kind of playing this cost game.
16:13:07 I mean, I know like I brought up for instance when we talk about like Higgs precision at like click versus 10 Db Mulan blah blah, that the numbers in terms of just the cross sections are very similar for like a 10 TV new on collider and click a three
16:13:22 TV that's polarized.
16:13:25 Now, again, I have, as a theorist I have, I can always calculate the cross section for you. But in terms of what's the cost saving of terms of making the thing polarized versus giving me the energy etc I mean, that's the part that we need the feedback
16:13:39 mechanism, but we can answer all these questions. If you're willing to tell me where there are large qualitative differences.
16:13:50 Excellent. If I could read it okay if I interject a moment.
16:13:55 Yeah, Patrick thanks for that comment. I think that actually pulls on the thread of one of the things right Amir had been asking about if I understand your answer correctly, at least for some signatures, there's a significant trade off between polarization
16:14:09 and energy that is if you could have, you know, three TV machine with polarization it would have similar utility to, I think you said attend TV machine without.
16:14:18 So that's a really important thing to come out of this discussion I think that as far as cost goes, you know, to some extent to be on collider has has r&d that's needed the accelerator frontier six technologies, certainly are in r&d stage at this point
16:14:33 so it's difficult to quantify exact cost, but certainly it's, it's very important for us to be guided by the energy and 30 frontiers on on those kinds of trade offs right that that can really influence what kind of r&d is needed on the accelerators.
16:14:49 It just default one quick comment I mean, again, this comes back to the comment that Michael Peskin may and Liam Tao and I mean it really depends upon what physics targets, you're interested in because for the case of it if the Higgs was the holy grail
16:15:05 that's what we wanted to, we could do this trade off of. If you give me click polarization three TV versus 10 TV new plus b minus, then for Higgs physics in terms of most Higgs properties, I'm going to say that's great.
16:15:21 But I think if you ask any physicist that's interested in bsm physics beyond just takes physics. All of us would say give us the 10 TV Milan Collider, because we want the energy reach for new states but I mean so this is the trade off, and that we that
16:15:36 we can explore we just need more conversations about if you give me this trade off what will you get and vice versa.
16:15:44 Okay, from an oil and then the Roman.
16:15:46 Yes, my comment is very very busy comma in reference to the gamma gamma, I seem to remember when looking at that, it has all of these machines, it was perhaps one of the least expensive, and one that require the least Burundi.
16:16:05 So I hope that Michael Baskin will include it. Plus it has inherent polarization. I mean polarization already embedded.
16:16:13 So I hope that it will be included in the theoretical study by Michael.
16:16:21 Michael Copeland.
16:16:27 Okay. I'm sure he's connected no longer. He is connected.
16:16:33 Excuse me, I was muted.
16:16:37 There, there actually is some new thinking about gamma gamma that's being done at slack in particular by Tim Barkow and you're on your own home.
16:16:45 And it. It's quite not quite ready for prime time but it's coming soon so you'll see it it's numbers.
16:16:54 Okay. Okay.
16:16:57 Sounds interesting Roman please.
16:17:00 Hi, thanks for this interesting discussion that I follow with really great interest concerning polarization let me add another basic consideration that let me not polarization can also match up for missing luminosity.
16:17:17 You have the famous SLC lab example where was at not for all quantities but for quite a few quantities.
16:17:27 You lab had much higher luminosity but SLC was better because it had luminosity and this was a 30 this is I think this is a depends a bit on the if you have a Kairos sensitive observable.
16:17:43 And you can do you can do miracles with luminosity right. So there's a matrix polarization but not miracles, but you can really do a lot of things and also our exercise we did for the European strategy show that there are a number of observer worlds where,
16:17:59 for example the IOC has nothing to envy the FCC, even if the FCC has I don't know how Tara can better set, but you are not so far from it so that's something you should keep in mind as well.
16:18:15 So, is there some magic formula remember for example for formula here.
16:18:24 All I can dig it out so can you can translate this in terms of analysis power.
16:18:30 I have it somewhere in one of my notes I can send it to you. I oh it's a bit unorthodox but I call it analysis power where you can really see that how the how the polarization folds and I can take it out it's quite it's quite trivial formula which you
16:18:45 can look up in every textbook.
16:18:50 But, at the same center have done without pausing so you could compare very favorably that way but the competitor at 10. tv. Beyond collider with a three TV polarized electron positron machine, it's going to be a little bit tougher you know to pick specific
16:19:08 cross section spots right.
16:19:10 Yeah, yeah, sure, sure this event with energy I'm not so sure how you can compensate maybe because you can switch off cross sections and have done a pure, you can switch off backgrounds and then have a pure sample honesty I never thought about really
16:19:29 how you can match up for energy but for for luminosity for sure. Yeah, damn sure, because you have polarization. You can purify your samples. You can switch up undesired backgrounds and then you have very much much easier interpretation of your samples,
16:19:50 which is also a big advantage but ok I will just was just my two pennies to consider as well. So Thanks Eric.
16:20:00 Please.
16:20:03 So, just like a addressing comment that he made about concepts for continue the electronic side or simply be laughing.
16:20:14 And I think that's one place where we could play a role.
16:20:18 The whole vantage of plasma based system that's incredibly high greens, which implies, it's easier to get very high energy that nother intrinsic advantage of fall short.
16:20:45 Bunch duration, which needs to reduce them.
16:20:37 Installing compliant higher higher charge punch higher nasty.
16:20:44 But I think on paper, the studies we've done so far, which is really based on just our knowledge and understanding.
16:21:03 We do have designs, what science is we're only considering the physics of the examples that were presented by Cameron table.
16:21:05 That would reach 10 TV for electron positron fire. Again, you know, a lot more needs to be done in terms of integrated design, and particularly the dean delivery system.
16:21:39 At least conceptually, reaching high energies relatively compact in them that when I classes do have an edge.
16:21:29 How's the transfer a little more difficult for reasons that we don't have time to get into. But in principle, house plans can be accelerated as well.
16:21:53 But the electrons here to be much easier. And again, this great system question about gamma gamma fighter, which is already been mentioned simpler option for plasma based systems, but you know the 10 TV range does seem at least on paper to be something
16:21:58 that is within reach.
16:22:04 I would probably recommend here sort of area to answer me to proposal process for machine to Thomas, maybe write a pre print. So because that's exactly what Granta was Patrick was talking so when they see something what actually can be done with range
16:22:23 of energies with niceties. I'm sure that people will get more excited and potentially do specific studies here so but we it has to be both ways.
16:22:35 So it's not just sort of series to predicting what kind of colliders could be fueled I think it should be both ways. Yes.
16:22:45 But what I hear from from Patrick media and john doe that the series in general kind of don't want to invest too much effort into things which are prohibited by other reasons for example like course the media for communities struck by the cost of three
16:23:03 TV. Click which is in the range of $20. billion, European account and so on when we bring options for 10 TV electron poison collider SR once. I believe we need to convince people that you know we new approach is better in terms of, you know, dollars per
16:23:27 TV or something like that.
16:23:25 Cameron I think you have your fundraising ethics partner, so I Dimitri thanks for that comment so I, as Thomas I noted in his talk IBF six groups have worked and submitted to coordinated examples, and to try to to limit the.
16:23:43 How shall I say the number of cases that need to be considered.
16:23:46 They have coordinated the parameter table so these are technologies on which there is significant r&d to be done yet. And so there is a parameter set for one TV for three TV for 15 TV.
16:24:00 And that essentially spans the structure Wakefield laser Wakefield plasma Wakefield.
16:24:06 And so there's there's a slight range in the parameters, but they've all been targeted to the same energies of luminosity.
16:24:12 And so that's part of what we wanted to bring up today is that you know you're right as of the last film as those had not been discussed, and so based on the community interest that we heard from energy in theory frontiers.
16:24:24 And based on the great work that the neon forum and others have done in that area, those tables are ready, and we're ready to discuss with you, what further is needed to enact to allow calculations.
16:24:36 And in particular, hopefully, you know, these are r&d concepts at this point so they are not PDFs or even CD ours, but it would be nice to understand the commonalities IE and electron looks like I'm you on the differences polarization could be important.
16:24:53 And the potential for things like gamma gamma at a high level.
16:25:02 Nice question to to Cameron Erica whatever all plasma proponents yesterday push work has shown that she has on this seven kilometres of distance on thermal upside and if you go with traditional collider designs.
16:25:18 Final focus system takes three to four kilometers out of seven.
16:25:22 And of course you guys are looking for for long time that plasma focus in kind of super strong partner focus and can solve many many problems that is consideration of this super short focus in plasma lenses for colliders being part of any planning of
16:25:38 r&d, do a map or whatever.
16:25:42 What can you say about that.
16:25:45 Maybe I can start to answer that and then I'll ask if Spencer or Carl or Eric are connected I'll ask them to comment also. So, I know that I went by it quickly but in my slides, you'll find that sequence of options for potential use in that case of an
16:25:58 LLC facility but it's similar for a formula but it's a filler type option.
16:26:03 So, the structure gets you part of it, but as part of me or points out the focusing is a big part of it. So, being deliberate for these colliders is also a topic of r&d.
16:26:14 These colliders will position you in the quantum beam Sterling research team which has important advantages in improving interaction and potentially reducing the wall plug required.
16:26:26 But yes, plasma lenses are absolutely part of the design strategy, and that was essentially the last line in my table, and it's it's the combination of plasma, focusing for the beam delivery and freighter stage coupling that really gets you to the high
16:26:41 geometric gradients over the whole enact and could could be used in a machine like a formula website filler.
16:26:48 So,
16:26:53 I'm sorry. In that case even one TV kilometre gives you a seven TV center of mass on federal website, roughly speaking, right.
16:27:00 Yes.
16:27:01 Okay. Very simple plasma let's do this plasma lenses work both for the electron beam focusing and also the positron.
16:27:13 Are there issues there. There are issues you do need different designs, but there are plasma structures that are focusing for positrons I flashed by one very quickly.
16:27:23 There is a concept for using a plasma column, rather than a large contiguous plasma that for example creates a focusing region for positrons that could be used.
16:27:57 general comments.
16:27:49 As I mentioned, our research I don't know
16:27:53 why not we only have a few minutes left here so we give to Cannes up.
16:27:58 So Roman was, yeah, I have a, maybe, maybe stupid question but how much would such a plasma, all these efforts benefit from the fact that, let's say a facility would be already there, in which, at a later stage you could be then embed your, your device
16:28:19 I mean as an upgrade, not as a new device but really as an upgrade because you need to also get the physicist and a stick experimentalists and all you need to get get get us going with a facility that runs and that when we go and then we go above one
16:28:37 Dude, you name it. So, you have to have not said that a step function but you have to start somewhere right so that you go that way, we have this 10 TV as an exciting upgrade options to that you have really a facility of physicists community that actively
16:28:56 analyzes the data the policy mind state and that point. So, so I think that you said it I think to put this in a broader context I think this is important.
16:29:08 I fully agree and that was exactly the intention of showing that table starting from a near term facility, such as an LLC or a site filler and then being able to develop in that I fully agree that that's extremely important.
16:29:23 answer right yeah on the topic of plasma lens is.
16:29:28 This is something that's important for, you know, making full use of high energy plasma driven Collider. It's also something that if we can demonstrate that it works, can be an advantage to a conventional Collider, because in a sense the BDS the beam
16:29:42 delivery system is separate from the accelerator. So, at facet, we have ongoing work on plasma lenses looking at trying to approach to get a limit in terms of the focusing strength and producing small spots at Berkeley, they for a long time have been
16:30:00 looking at the active plasma lens and using that for their inner stage coupling. So it's something that we're pushing on pretty hard, and it's, it's something that the whole accelerator community can benefit from not just advanced accelerators for us
16:30:16 in terms of getting high luminosity machines at better luminosity for power.
16:30:23 I think that's an excellent point it sort of draws on something that I mentioned briefly which is that we should think of advanced exciters not just as full colliders, but as potential components, whether it be focusing or injectors or other systems.
16:30:38 Okay, look, we was God. So, at was planned and about meeting so I would like to thank everyone who participated.