Okay. And then, I guess, um, are you planning on turning the recording by cotton, keeping.
When we start. I guess we have another minute for so.
power it looks like you're voting with your feet. You're looking at my background or what this means.
You must really love cosmic frontier.
Yeah, no, no, no, no.
Okay. Well, why don't we get started with grey and literally for CF to and you guys have 510 plus 10 minutes and we'll try to keep on schedule.
All right.
Okay, where's the button to.
Come on.
All right. Alright, so I'm reporting September 15 because that is, I'm sharing slides from our last big wavelength Dark Matter groups the f2. So everyone see the slides.
So anyone see the slides. Yeah. Okay, good. All right, moving right along. Alright so reporting restart progress of CF to wave like dark matter so we had a meeting last week.
And I'm going to be talking about what we discussed there so these are slides that were live edited. Where did we leave off, so we have a large number of letters of interest, there's a town hall meeting with breakout discussions we established a series
a series of community solicited community white papers, as well as group white papers, we started getting volunteers to lead these.
And then the process pause, so we are now coming back online. So where are we reminding ourselves the goals as Aaron said in his talk earlier well articulated compelling communication of their their scientific vision and talk about kind of who we are
and what we're trying to do and why our physics is really important because it's really important it's really exciting. Now, we're going to try to enumerate the ideas and projects that we should investigate or the next year without product prioritization
project an image of a unified community because I feel like our, our kind of our special case is that so here we are and it's this is kind of a high energy physics.
Focus thing and yet we're doing things with very low energies and so we attract a wildly diverse group of different type of experiments and different interests, looking at things their sub EV a lot of ammo a lot of in Mr people are you know this matter
interferometry. There's a huge number of directions, it's the absolute Wild West. At the same time, there's a couple of well established ideas and projects that have been developed over the last like 30 years that are ready to go big big big in the next
10 years.
And so we somehow have to get all of these people marching in the same direction to agree the here's the physics is important here are the things that need to be big, here the things that need to be fun at a small scale and they're all important.
So, you know, the at the absolute definition of herding cats here.
So we've got tentative titles for our solicited white papers. We're talking about a lot of cosmology is pre inflation post inflation so that the QC ACCION is we've established that's kind of the flagship search because it's the theoretically most talked
talked about it's by no means the only thing to look for.
But it did we kind of hold that up as as just say okay this this is a well developed idea that we can target and some benchmark to say how you know how far out what, what should we push other ideas to develop towards the level of wer concerts for them.
I'm going to talk about we've got a lot of cross you know we don't have special cross cutting liaisons because we these, these papers kind of do the job for us.
Huge cross cutting with with astrophysics, what is wavelength Dark Matter mean for Astrophysics What is it you know when it goes both ways, ACCION photon couplings of the most well established experiments and so we're trying to break those by energy range
of what are the experiments we need to get a serious QZDXE on search. I'm kind of just covering that range. In the next 10 years and beyond, as well as we've got a huge number of novel and a stat novel novel and established ideas for wave like dark matter
that are all sort of small to mid scale.
And we've got one paper we've recruited several people working on that and may split.
But that's that's the, that's very important to bring them into the tent. And then, as well there's a lot of instrumentation rd and novel materials cross cutting that will all go into a white paper, there's I think we also decided that magnets also go
in there so that's probably going to turn into something like full on instrumentation needs.
So that's what's going on and we are working on getting names to put in front of it. So establishing leads, and this is a thing where we're trying to engage.
Early career people we're going to be dealing with this for the next 10 years that we'd like them to be leading these white papers.
And that then the that frees up that you know individual wise, we can have week certainly senior people can contribute to white papers that are referenced in these.
So it's kind of a condensation and compression of information.
To this end in October, we're going to have kind of these marathon presentations have very short, both things that were allies and things that have been developed over the last year and things that, you know, you should have been allies but weren't to
try and build up our, you know, just kind of build up the bench of things going into these community white papers, they're happening, Wednesday, Friday, all through October.
And feel free to cut me so so we have not announced any schedules yet we're just being to solicit groups to organize, who's talking when, but if you're super excited already please organize, email us as organizers and we'll just start slotting people
in. So you get a chance to give out your elevator pitch. And one of the big questions that we came up with in our in our last meeting, is that how do we balance.
Kind of experiments that the groups that feel need a big asked to do to be taken seriously. Well the same time there's a huge number of small ideas small scales things that are both developing and developed that I'm need to attract funding to and so so
crafting a message that kind of does everything for everyone, and I frack fractal funding scheme was the idea that I came up with is kind of we there's needs at all scales and there's people who needs companies at all scales. So we're going to try and that you know
that that's our challenge for for writing these white papers and summaries.
So those were the relevant slides. I'm
open up to questions I guess I'm not plenty of time.
presuming we've got no questions because every year everyone who questions showed up to the meeting last week.
Uh huh. Okay, well then I have a question, please.
now there's a paper, explaining the Xenon solar ACCION access is actually being not oxy ions but chameleons of dark energy. And then there's ideas from people like Peter Graham, where
wave Dark Matter detectors could detect other sources of non dark matter.
But, for example hidden photons coming from dark energy decay.
And then there's also an idea it's like searching directly for the touchy Quinn phase transition, using gravitational waves. So there seems to be a lot of interconnections that
while they may not be specifically within the purview of CF to the wavelength dark matter, and they kind of belong in the boundaries with the other groups, how are you.
Yeah, you're right, so this this is one of our challenges is that we're so deeply interconnected here so about half the things you said fit neatly into our community white paper scheme.
I'm the one of the ones that I that you said that I noted that it was, it was floated for ideas that community white paper and then kind of the floor below threshold but maybe it really ought to be there because I because for example, talking about the
Xenon access we're talking about kind of thing things that live on the border of particle dark matter and wavelength dark matter so you know it can even be 100 Pv.
Um, it's probably important these those don't slip through the cracks and you are right I'm looking at those I'm a little worried whether those will be sufficiently represented in our ACCION photon high, high mass coupling.
While all we have plenty of other cosmology and astrophysics ties are very well well established so somebody's got to keep an eye out for, and maybe even we might even have to solicit another white paper at the very least, it does certainly be contributed
white papers that will have to fold in.
It's always the things that are kind of on the boundaries that are in danger of falling through the cracks. Okay, so I think I bow has his hand up.
Um, yeah I just have a comment on because you know the well documented predictive very unique of features in terms of the halo structure and it can Attica dynamics right so it looks to me that there could be a strong synergy between our white paper on
on Halo measurement and also the wave document so i i don't know in the in your like working group, do you really deeply cover on the aspect of the, you know, cosmic astrophysical aspects of the wave documented in particular, like in all aspects of like
Halo dynamics, you know the structure formation.
Yeah, so, so you can see that my first three, three white papers there, touch on that.
And so I guess the thing is is once we have established leads for that they should be in contact with your group to make sure that they're properly cross reference so yeah it's I mean something we're excited about and people in the group are excited about.
I think they fit into astrophysics and cosmology, that you get to decide which which halos where halos fit.
Okay. Yeah, but yeah it's unfortunately I wish I had names in front of all of these because it's because my and then my answer would just be like here, email these people make sure that they're that you're connected, but we're just not there yet.
Okay.
All right. Any other questions or comments from the community.
I should mention that we still have another nine minutes I'm trying to stay on schedule so we're not going to start the other sessions early, people the chance to sign on.
Okay, looks like Alex says his hand up and makes me maybe this is a.
I guess this question can be asked all of the different tiers and it gets to exactly what you were just saying their grades, like what is what's the expected mechanism for people to get involved, or contribute to these white papers and Mike what's the
mechanism for identifying the captains are facilitators of the white papers like if if people are interested in contributing like where can they find the list of white papers, like, I guess these slides will be posted somewhere.
And then so so so don't go to my slides for the list of library white papers go to there's a unified Snowmass white paper solicited list, click spreadsheet.
So go to that one, and we will we will try and report properly to that one. Now I don't have a link on my, my, by him but I bet they showed it during the thing so I will try and beat you know a good citizen and not keep doing duplicate lists that will
get out of date. In terms of how you get involved. So how do you get to be in charge of one of these is that a year ago we had a solicitation for captains and this next week we should get another email you know there'll be an email to the the the wave
like dark matter email list, saying hey if you want to do this or you know someone who wants to do this, please put them in and we've, so we've already got some names and we'll sort through them and get those names and give them, you know, get, get the,
people who are captains, who have other people they can draw on and you know so we have to do God kind of a bunch of things but that the right thing to do is watch your email list on these. Okay, marianna you're up next.
Hi, thank you.
Um, I wanted to bring up the potential collaboration with our theory friends here or maybe on this, you know, think more about how do we continue with new ideas, because if you look at this, you know what will go to white paper on mobile and established
ideas for way like dark matter. A lot of those ideas, you know last 510 years so many things I know which our community and the aim of physics involved, they're all very very new.
So, I just wonder how can we use also Snowmass process to increase collaborations, and to make sure that he showed us a continued in the community for connected.
I just don't not sure where this will go and.
How can this be implemented.
Yeah so so the so so we're talking about connections to the theory and nominally that would be the first two white papers, which it's it's if you if you read them from the perspective, you know that the pre inflation and post inflation, make them sound
awfully strongly tied to the QC ACCION but I mean of course everything has to deal with inflation. Let's see Lindley Do you recall how if we have a good idea for this, or if that's something that it's an outstanding issue to work on.
So I think the new experimental ideas, new techniques definitely fall into the one white paper that is not well defined right now which actually Marianna we've been bought volunteered you to help us with.
And that might be a couple to try to capture all these ideas.
And, and I think this is where we had needed help is trying to connect that back to make sure that the set of white papers, you know, does correctly connect up to the cosmology, because the first two papers are definitely trying to set the cosmology,
of the, of the wavelength dark matter and I'm sorry I keep saying ACCION. But what are limits coming from cosmology, what are the limits of what we can build and what are some you know what is like the cutting edge of what we can do.
And so I think that's another way to, to frame what we need to do with it Snowmass is no set with the universe's, allowing us to do set what we can do right now and set the ideas for the future.
Sorry, just a little bit continue so I guess the two topics are the cinnamon ology or few more things to be on the actions, especially for scalar dark Mediterranean sort of the political just have real actions in your sort of a lot of recent ideas understanding,
you know what's.
You know likely not likely but just promoting more research and that's, but also, I mean, how do we make sure that new ideas continue then they're connected with detectorists connected with our attendees.
So I guess that was my question.
I think the current white papers says, you know, beautiful to show what's you know going on right now but how do we make sure it extends in the future, especially with rice of quantum technologies.
Right.
Um, I guess I would jump into, like new theories that don't have a detector yet that's definitely theory frontier.
But as soon as there's an idea, then that is in needs to be captured within CF two.
And if there's a new theory and it connects into cosmology, we need to see it in the white papers of the first part of this.
I think that's what I see this might be a question also throw up to Aaron of is that a good way to see it that is some level CF to is, is, is covering, you know, The once theory has connected to technology, even if it's already.
Yeah, well I think, Susan has her hand up she might have a comment on this.
Thank you. Thank you, Aaron. Yeah, I just wanted to revisit Mariana is concerned in a concrete context. I mean, that is to say that in regards to this particular tentative title for axons with photons less than a micro EV in mass, that in fact, I wrote
a recent paper on this with some my colleagues and, In fact, the idea is a misalignment mechanism in cosmology that allows dark matter to be ultra light doesn't select the intrinsic parody of the candidate.
And that. Moreover, say a scalar candidate, which is ultra light could be probed in saying, LLC circuit idea, much like an axiom, but the details are quite different.
So I would like to point out my own paper as a particular example of a.
I would say a concrete theoretical idea, which can have be implemented in an experiment, but in a different experiment from an axon direct detection experiment, so I would just may propose or advocate that perhaps some of the titles could be slightly
broadened, so maybe rather than x John's with photons listen to Michael EP, maybe just dark matter of less than micro EV, and look at the particular sub possibilities within that, although of course, axons have been very popular there.
It's just that they're known no real connection to the QC dx Jaan for such light ultra light things.
So I think this is where, where grey and I and and your can't be on right now.
We're really looking to have these conversations in the next few weeks, and try to try to figure out the best way to structure.
These, these sort of the three, three sections of our community.
And what makes sense, kind of, the next stage because you know in the end we started me to synthesize this, we have to synthesize it and then Aaron has a job of synthesizing it even more into one one story.
And so that's in my mind what we need to do in the next few weeks. So, Susan, you're now on the hook to tell us about your paper.
In October pic time. And also this this is also you're you're you're hitting so so some of these papers are huge like there's lots of different ideas out there and then we're also going to need some of these papers are for the very developed experiments
that need to make a case for a big deal he asked. I don't know if we, you and I have to talk about whether it's right to mix those in the paper or to separate them because different people are going to be shooting for different funding streams.
I just found it marketable Kismet that I wanted to say that I thought that this micro EV dark sub Michael EV Dark Matter possibility, could be more broadly cast, and it just happened to fit very nicely with Miranda's comments.
So I thought I really had to say something. So, but I understand, obviously, that there has been much more attention paid to ACCION and hidden photon dark matter.
That's all to light it just doesn't have to be that way.
Right, right. Okay, I guess I never quite responded to Marianna and this I don't this might be transgressive to say this, but in terms of making sure research continues to happen and keeping people interested.
I think the white papers are not gonna not actually super useful for that what's super useful is, so you know we wrote to you last week Marianna saying oh you got to help us out and get us like give us a big pool of people.
So you're going to get a big pool of people that are all going to be invited into this and it's going to establish a mailing list and then every time there's an axiom conference, we've got this mailing list that's very inclusive and keeps bringing people
in and getting people excited and cooking people together so there's a certain amount of, of, you know, community building that's you know done in mailing lists now but but you know eventually will be in conferences that gets people talking and keeps
people talking in the future, beyond just the Snowmass like writing things up.
All right, Aaron saying we're so you guys will need to continue this discussion offline, we're going to move on to the next session which is a IBO and Alex CF three.
Yeah, thanks for the comments and, yeah, It's continued.
Okay. Hopefully you can see my screen.
Hopefully you can still see it. Thumbs up Aaron, you can see. Yeah.
Great. Okay, so I'm here presenting on behalf of the CF three topical group convened by myself and john the Prescott Weinstein, and then either.
so I'm going to give like a little bit of context because this is a fairly new topical group relative to the last Snowmass process, and then go through some of the, the white papers that we're soliciting and the timelines and how people can get involved.
So what did Dark Matter look like and so mass 2013 so this is apart from one of the high level complementarity papers, across sort of bringing together the different dark, dark matter components.
And so mass 2013. And you can see that that most of the interconnectivity that was emphasized here was between the sort of what we were considered the three pillars of dark matter detection direct detection indirect detection and particle colliders and
off on the side was this this fairly independent pillar of astrophysical probes.
The result of this kind of segregation of the different Dark Matter components was that in the P five report in 20 2014, you can see that many of the large cosmic frontier experiments, specifically those that are studying astrophysical observations of
of the universe, were not flagged as as attacking dark matter as one of their key science drivers. So Reuben observatory Ellis STCMDS for and Desi, none of these were identified as experiments that would teach us about dark matter physics.
And so one of the primary goals of CF three is to avoid having this happen again.
In, in the coming p five report.
And so this is what the universe looks like from the CF three perspective. And really the main mission statement here is that astrophysics provides really the only robust positive empirical measurement of dark matter that we have.
And so we really need to learn as much as we can about dark matter physics from the observations that we can take of the universe.
We're of course very tightly connected with the other Dark Matter topical groups.
See of one and see up to which are studying particle like and wave like dark matter.
We interact with very closely as you can hear in praise talk. And then there are a number of other topical groups across the frontiers that are also interested in studies of dark matter.
So just as an example of how interconnected, this is these are thoughts from two papers that came out in July on the archive. And the thing I don't want to go through the physics that goes into this the thing to note is that you see direct detection colliders
CFPB and Milky Way satellites so observations of galaxies, all contributing to constraints on the dark matter, electron scattering cross section as a function of dark matter particle nuts.
And so you see experiments that are in CF one so things like seen on and Sensei, you see things that are in CF seven sort of particle astrophysics experiments excuse me as an X ray experiment, and you see things that belong in the other frontiers the
energy frontier, and even, you know neutrino frontier. And so I think the the theme we're trying to build here is that really dark matter is a question that's attacked across the frontiers and really across the experimental efforts with frontiers.
So what's the status and see if three so in.
Last year we received about 75 letters of interest from the community, we organized a series of discussions, including the community planning meeting and came up with a list of six solicited white papers with designated facilitators and I'll show these
on the next slide. I'll just note that of course we're happy to accept additional contributed white papers, but we're encouraging people to join in these solicited white paper efforts, when the opportunity when it is possible so when your topic is able
to fit within these white papers, we encourage you to get involved in that mechanism.
So the six white paper topics that we identified are listed here.
You can find this on the Snowmass wiki I'll share that. Next slide.
The topics are dark matter physics from Halo measurements. So this is Halo profiles and below abundances.
So ranging from large scale structure to sub galactic scales primordial black holes and gravitational waves. So primordial black holes as dark matter probes and probes of inflation numerical simulations and systematic so it's it's essential that we're
able to simulate the distribution of dark matter accurately in the universe in order to extract constraints on fundamental physics from observations of the universe.
So this paper emphasizes the importance of numerical simulations.
Connecting dark matter to the early universe. This paper was envisioned to cover things like like relics 21 centimeter observations, and in over the last several weeks through conversations with the facilitators and with the other topical groups, it seems
likely that this is actually going to be merged into white papers from see f5 and, and the theory frontier, rather than being a sea of three hosted white paper, but that's sort of to be finalized, dark matter physics and extreme astrophysical environments.
So this includes studies of stellar interiors neutron stars, non primordial black holes and what what these extreme environments thinking just about dark matter physics, and then they'll find a white paper is emphasizing facilities for cosmic probes and
dark matter physics and the coming decade. So some of the proposed this is filtered facilities that will enable improved measurements of dark matter properties.
These include the Monica spectroscopic explorer mega mapper CMDHD and some other high precision astronomical observations.
So you can find this information on the Snowmass wiki on under the sea f3 topical group page here.
status of CFP organization is that in November 2020 before the pause, we identified these solicited white papers that I just showed and identified the facilitators in.
In August, the August and August meeting the facilitators were asked to start identifying writers for each of these solicited white papers in an upcoming meeting in the middle of October.
We're asking the white paper organizers to have initial skeletons and outlines of what they pay for see their papers covering and be begin to articulate the key questions and opportunities that we're going to want to emphasize for each of these white
papers.
In January, we're asking for initial drafts of these white papers to be circulated to see f3 so that it can be injuries and other members of the group can provide feedback, and we can start discussing the contents of the papers and various overlaps as
well as talking about overlaps with the other other topical groups and other frontiers.
And Tom, since the topical group report is to be written in parallel to the white papers, we need to start synthesizing the ideas of the community curly.
And then of course the deadline for the white papers is in in March of next year.
So if you want to get involved.
Please join our meetings, engage us on the SMS slack. I think this is probably the most active way to get involved.
There's also an email list that you're welcome to join if you're interested.
We're trying to collect as much paper as much material as we can and the Snowmass wiki, as well as on the Indiegogo page so we post our meeting minutes and recordings on the indigo, and then our main Slack channel is is listed here.
If you have any questions you can contact any of the convener inside of left email addresses here. So I think that's the end of my slides. So I'll stop sharing the screen and take questions.
Alright. Any questions for Alex, or for high boat.
I'm also here.
Oh, okay.
Thanks Shonda.
Alright, so we'll.
Yeah, I really just wanted to say I particularly, particularly like how you channel and hypo have really summarize the main objective from CS three I think that that's that's so important whenever you're dealing with so many different perspectives here,
and I think if we accomplish that, getting, you know, whenever they start listing in facilities like lsst and the Reuben observatory etc.
You know as dark matter probes I think the. That's something that would be a major accomplishment.
And it's, it seems tractable and feasible.
So not a question just to comment.
I like what you, what you all are doing with your messaging.
Thank you.
We appreciate positive feedback.
Any other topics or questions.
Maybe I can just add something. Yeah, good.
Yeah, I just say that there was some discussion, I'm during the MCF to talk about connections with and theory frontier, and I would just say that this is something that we are also paying attention to and it's important to us and say oh, we're also open
hear people's thoughts and I heard to better make those connections and do it in a way that is mutually beneficial for both the theoretical questions and the observational and experimental questions that are out there.
You can email us if you're feeling shy, right now, or slack us.
So, um, are there were there some particular issues or organizational issues that you guys were encountering, I know there is something about trying to avoid overlap of white papers, is that going okay or better.
Yeah.
I didn't want to take up space right now with that, unless that was the case you're asking about it. I'm yeah I think the third their husband and issue and I really appreciate the the Snowmass young folks who've been trying to get better coordination
so that everybody knows what white papers are being written but we certainly had an issue where it seems like there's really strong crossover between paper white paper solicited white papers that we've proposed and say theory frontier and even with some
of the other CF topics, and I'm I it's it's not always clear how, how to address that because our working styles of how to have an even engaging authors is so different.
Um, but also because the goals that different tiers are so different that there's always a worry that if for example we have a white paper that crosses over really strongly with what I'm fury frontier is doing and we cut our white paper that there will
actually then be issues that get dropped because it won't be a priority for theory, and we don't really have a good mechanism right now for adjudicating that and I think it would probably be helpful for the, the frontier containers to get involved, a
little bit and navigating those helping us navigate this conversations with the theory of frontier. And I will also just mention for one of the concerns I have about this also is that we have taken the, the spirit with our white papers that we want them
to be very open if people want to make contributions that we want to welcome as many people across a broad cross section of the community early career all the way through and people from groups that usually maybe don't feel like they're at the center
of the conversation to feel welcome and participating and not every frontier shares that ethos. And so the other thing that can happen when we drop a paper is that there might actually be people who get cut out of participating in the process, because
our paper was their vehicle for that.
So those are the kinds of considerations that we were thinking about in terms of consolidation and at the same time, we invited a bunch of people to facilitate papers and then they're seeing people got asked to write similar papers for other frontiers.
And we want to be really mindful of the fact that people are, we're still in the middle of the pandemic people are burned out and overworked and we certainly don't want to ask people to duplicate work and but doesn't need to be duplicated.
So, um, yeah maybe flip is thinking about that and have some, some helpful suggestions, but those are some of the things that we've been thinking through with those questions and just making sure that everything gets touched on new science gets lost,
but also that people don't get lost in the mix as well in various ways.
Right so flip, and then sucka thanks yeah so so sorry this is, I'm the theory frontier liaison sorry I've been a bit out of touch on this. The one update I can share from theory frontier is I think they finally have a bear list of white papers and their
own separate database so the thing that I want to be helping out more in the coming weeks, is making sure we have that list and use that to to help us with this coordination, but I do completely agree with the points that Charlie mentioned about making
sure nothing gets lost but also making sure that no one is being asked to do multiple things in an unfair way.
right soccer.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you agenda for bringing up this dope duplication of work.
I was going to contact you.
You know, after talking to my co convener about some of the duplication that I see in in newer topical group, especially the dark matter, ultra light blue zones, you know astrophysical searches for dogmatic mostly these are gravitational very motivated,
but there are others that are more general astrophysics so we definitely need to coordinate. It's one of the white papers that we solicited based on a number of employees that were directly submitted, but I think we need some coordination here, I think
will be in touch. Thank you for bringing this bringing this up. Okay, Alex.
Yeah, maybe just sort of a direct response to that is that I think we all need to be aware that many allies were submitted to many different of the topical groups, and so well.
And we just need to work through that right so if someone's submitted an LLM to multiple topical groups, it's better for us to figure out how that topic is going to be covered rather than both of those topical groups going off and writing, you know their
own independent take on it.
Okay.
Yeah, I want to echo what has been raised about this overlap on the, on the other hand I think this is where the convener could try to help. We have some interesting overlap in between our detractors, and we have been working with the neutrino frontier.
On this kind of issues were essentially trying to put together white paper to also in response to the neutrino frontier and cosmic phones here in the, in a sense of fundamental physics study.
So that's just one data point that we're trying to push and so far looks reasonable.
And maybe that's what the commissioners can try a bit more to to resolve some of the issues of overlapping.
Yeah. And also, one data point from our expertise. Yeah.
And I think we also have the formal liaisons between the frontiers and we should try to get them involved so Philip was to the liaison to the theory frontier and colleague links that liaison to the neutrino frontier.
So, yeah, please include them in any correspondence.
Hi Bo.
And then we have to close after that.
I just made a quick comment I think it, you know, a lot of you already said, I think the kind of the main issue that organization in terms of his or whatever became white papers, so we try to figure this out.
Over the past few weeks I think the first step of property if every working group we can just do that, the names of the white paper that'd be great and also the contact person.
That's one the second day is that, you know, in terms of hosts AF like working group, Aaron, do you guys think about how do we coordinate at some point because you can, you know, miss it probably will have to think about how to acquire entity, organize
together, and we were also happy to to listen to your ideas or thoughts on this. Yeah. Yeah, so definitely in the next few weeks and months we'll, we'll have a better idea of what we want to do but the kind of the first step is to look at the ideas that
are percolating up to the both the community white papers that have been identified and the ideas that are that are coming out, and that'll with that global view will have a better idea of how to organize the structure of the final report, but yeah definitely
that's in progress.
And I guess there's a comment is it possible to deal with the theme of cosmic neutrino background. And I would guess that that's probably within CF seven.
And maybe we can talk about that. Once you have seven it's up, but for now we have to stay on schedule. So we'll move on to see up for, and I'm just flows are will present.
Yes, hello.
And let me share my screen. So I'm I have the most unfortunate one request to speak you just have to Alex now, Alice always has the most polished presentation of all of us.
So, that is how it is okay, let's let's let's move forward so. So we are starting after, after one year one change in our group is that we changed one convenient Marcel has stepped down, Bangkok Covina myself he stepped down due to conduct workload at
and space the G man is from formula. So the kind of community RG man is genuine and myself. So this is the manifest what we're supposed to do so we're supposed to basically now my effects were supposed to focus on the modern human universe, this is basically
the universe redshift less than six.
But of course there is a lot of overlap it's a five and six right so CF five so the split at some point we say for a five is modern universe and early universe.
But for example in the universe you ever seen be in the same you have secondaries which then are probing the late time acceleration and modern universe, and also other way around and very early universe you have inflation and some inflationary footprints
are left over to the in the modern spiritual galaxy so you can also use the galaxies in the modern University kind of study the very early in some sense, there's there's a stronger love this year four and five and also with CCF six is again, it has facilities,
and basically cross correlations in some sense covers the same topics. So we've been kind of working very close together with four, five, and six. And that's why you will see some of these things being being repeated.
And that's why you will see some of these things being being repeated. So our last meeting in the previous iteration was November 20 2020, and then see that we had we had this lock along boss so we just had the meeting on Monday, which actually quite
productive, and the main process with trying to restart this first kind of to get where we were before so just kind of refresh our minds what we were doing work towards revised timelines and also think you know whether anything has changed in the industry
the last year you know so we've seen since the last, he didn't have been direct question in the batteries. What about the deals that appeared since that's within it was submitted.
Going back to the ly submissions received 57 entries and we'll spend some time correct was a characterizing them This was still in the situation.
And we kind of they kind of self organizing the few teams, which will use as an input for subsequent presentations. And so we have a set of presentations and give just some of them Alyssa here just an example that would actually mean the more we're kind
to have this, you know, half an hour positions from from different on different teams, different topics, and they kind of use them to kind of, you know, think about what they're going to do with in the future.
I would like to say that, especially in our fields many entries already know astronomy digital submissions and largely the fact that the sun Decatur has not come out it's been kind of some sort of.
It has been to put a break because for example for some, some experiments, you know, what are some of the killer will say will be very important because then you can use no muss, both to kind of feel maybe answering criticism they are or or or see what's
for you right so it's the cable say this is great, then you can use Snowmass as a springboard if they get together with it this is, this is kind of this is really awful then you can still kind of defend yourself and put yourself into some sort of longer
roadmap in installments. And the kids are supposed to be out by the end of this month but it's unlikely. Right.
And, and basically through this process we kind of came to have to down to four fanatics let's listen this white papers, which I'll talk to him on next slide.
So I'm going to them now.
But basically, in some sense, we're kind of.
Basically, it was lots of questions are what we're looking at what was I going to email submissions to people who submitted their lives and so on.
And we're going to produce some sort of long email on this team but in general the days that, you know, people could submit this letter of intent it's their responsibility to either find the placement of those facilities white papers or write their own
life papers right so we're not, we're behind the Frederick kind of trying to organize this allies, but we are not responsible for kind of passing the information in Italy after the orders of allies to make sure their staff gets included into the, into
the process and of course, we open right of course, all these white papers are open for submissions from everybody. And in principle, if you want to, if you don't like them, you want to add your own white paper, physical health where we also happy to
do this.
Now, what are the four key opportunities, all for this. How to say the synthesis of white papers. So, on the top left enterprise to see the large and Lynn and dinner and large and it basically for for for non specialist and explain this a little bit what
So basically for for for non specialist and explain this a little bit what this means. So we have a series of schools, public service that are going to basically measure the sky up to the Chief of to become some, some decent density, good enough density
the basically because this is a stop by that will be limited by simple violence right, not by basically will not improve by it by by taking more galaxies or the same boat.
But the sky. We also mentioned this sky very well using cannot sustain. But this is this is the metric so the next generation really would, it seems to be over something spectroscopic basically using it as a target is serving serving sandwiches lead sources
sources which you want to expect before, and they're really kind of the teams that are two main ways of going forward. Now one is that you kind of say, I really want to go to us number large have Linda remotes and live in a motor kind of large animals
that are not very nonlinear involved so we can we can model them very very well will be there preservative so they really contain information for the universe.
And this a bunch of physics that we can do it and sending them out like if, especially linked inflation on the society, fundamental physics, stuff like that.
Right.
Right. And the advantage is that we know how to do this is theoretically where we're motivated.
But really what you want to do is go to kind of very large volume paradigm shift when the sources are kind of fade and red, and how to measure spectra.
But you get much, much more void but in some sense, these data sets are going to be very well defined but perhaps not quite as rich to do a multitude of all kinds of physics.
But for example for for things like the mental, physical, it will be this the only way. Right. And here we have things like there's a mega mapper MC Puma carbon monoxide, nine test mapping and so on the other direction you can go is to say, well, instead
And again, another tangent experiments best effort so on and just take many more many more sources to ratchet up to adjust to, and then you will get this really really detailed map of the university, you know all the kind of film intersection so on.
But the science is much faster right, this is the service in the deep in a linear universe so basically the standard physics of matching patients, it's not going to do.
But on the other hand, maybe we can like new science when we can make a solid doc metaphysics modify the gravity to basically what it does to this nonlinear universe right.
And there's also some kind of you know promotions recover the many ways of coping with the data, but fortunately the theory is lacking right so. So here we have this massive data sets of hundreds of millions of sources but perhaps with.
It's not clear you know that doesn't have this know like this really juicy clear science case like Bao is for example for this. Right.
And to large extent you can use some of the same experiments with lunch and dinner if you just use big different sources right. On the other hand, if you can, new dedicate the experiments, you can kind of know optimize symptoms of neuroscience and then
But the second to flip it to possible directions paper for the other two white papers, touching different aspects. So one is high precision astrophysics, and this is kind of really saying that see what, where can we go if we, if we push, either expert
fabulous and so on for either large appear large.
skeptic precision or symmetric pursuit, right.
So, if we could regularly mastering all aspects of topic to kind of millimeters. The second velocity in the symmetric to, you know, media x seconds. And there are kind of science cases that could could be had.
Right.
But these papers are really not focused on much of those cases will probably lose them in numerical but we are developing, it's really about you know what kind of resources and what kind of investment we need to get these techniques which are very fussy
about a date and working. And then, you know, science cases who can write I mean there are some of them are really kind of just, you know, front page of New York Times like measure the expansion of the Universe by saying no record of drift.
But there could be often the fathers and especially again that has physics modified gravity came to my plate, but this is really the bottom left the strings experimentation.
Bottom Right paper is basically it's called a nugget enabling factor of explanatory just full potential.
What do we need, can we can we curve the differential investments in terms of enable you to some to science. And there are two, in some sense, there are two main.
kind of ads or perhaps potentially new and interesting things. And do we do we have over, resources on the fold this thing up. Expect to measure them and so on.
Also here comes things like you know for strong Lansing.
Light curves and so on.
So this is real time domain, of course all the supernova science goes under here.
And the I think is basically getting essentially spectrum from LSD.
In order to improve science by having better foot metric wretches from emphasis, you know, for the most special calibration, because for the most aggressive so likely going to be the dominant as much as well as the state.
So if you can invest a little bit of money to get some spectra get better calibration sample, you might actually get much more out of medicine itself.
And this is the thing that this bottom right people push.
And then of course, anything else might also going here right so if you have some, some no maybe even minor, but perhaps interesting idea about how we can potentially get more by taking this data and know, adding something to it.
That will enrich it, then, then you should go to this white paper.
Mr. I am I have to stop stop.
Yeah I think so because okay good Elsa, Elsa, good time to stop I went to the for white papers and the rest was motivate so I'll just take questions if the.
So men let me perhaps added basically for the first paper we even have unnecessary stuff which is based a lot on this paper that was done by say their goal, in some sense, which you should look at these big boss because of this paper planes lot of this
special purpose to kind of you know really kind of kind of on the same footing.
Comparison on this feature experiment, so I think Mike will be very nice white paper. And then the very high precision also is going to start thing getting organized and so on so we making real effort on these things which are kind of being very good.
And this is both the revised timeline it's kind of official, and basically I think all the water, looking girls will need to kind of float.
Right. Great, So we have about six minutes or questions before the next session.
Have a question from Alex.
Can we maybe you said this and I missed it. But, do we have any guesses about when the, the Astro decade will come out or what it will say,
I know it will not come next week, because it was expecting this review and they told them they won't get next week.
But you know we're supposed to come up in June, so I guess anytime now viewers and take a long time. I don't know I frankly I think basically probably a month but not more than that but I would have said the same last month so you know, I'll but we don't
know what you have to say I think they're very good at keeping up I don't even hear from somebody.
Okay. Louise.
Please go ahead. Yeah, I was trying to unmute. Yeah, I would respect to that question so today there was a issue shift on the call for NASA proposals.
So the letters of interest for the opera proposals of NASA have been delayed, a couple of months.
And they say that this is because of the report of the auto Tony Tony report and so they expect that before the end of the year.
They move I think they move two or three months these otherwise. And, and they're expecting the report before the end of the year and, but they say, if the report doesn't come out, we are going to shift again the.
The deadline for the Ala Wai. So, I don't see, it's going to be next month.
So I guess it'll become terror as we hear from the other.
Dark Energy groups.
But there seems to be a great deal of overlap and some of this stuff, like the particular paper that you mentioned on JV about
maximizing the science that that sort of seemed like a really closely related to the complementarity topic that's been see f6 as well.
So, yeah, so I did not mean it was directly, we became Kim successes because it was about, you know, no LSD was, was because it was slower to survey was supposed to be our thing and people without supernova analysis the now producing an SSD so that's
where kind of it kind of a bit, in some sense, I know but similar thing, I think if there's repeated material across this report. That's not the problem as long as the kind of stressors are different, right.
And, and post kind of also show the something so useful main thing so I think some of the laboratory white papers, it's not perfect right it's, it's kind of from some sense even the unavoidable right.
But we are talking to each other so I think I'll exactly similar episode but we like going they'll be nice. Let me put these competing with papers will ensure this happens.
Okay, great. So as long as we just need to make sure that everybody knows where to put their efforts and fighter duplication as much as possible.
Okay. Any other comments from the participants.
So there's some stuff in the chat.
Okay, so I guess there's a question about the one sounds good 2020 does come in.
How do you fold in the recommendations.
Yeah, so basically i i do think it's actually quite important aspect when it does come in before we go too far down here, right, and basically how we're falling to the convention depends what district and patients are, right, because at some point the
20 will have some sort of first specific ordering can.
I'm not going to go boating so far but literally legislative did. And then, have have a coffee myself.
Yeah, you're aware of the issue. Okay.
All right. Um, so I guess maybe if there's no other questions we can start switching over so the next one up is ICF seven cosmic probes and fundamental physics and Satya, Bangalore will
update us I thank you very much.
I hope you can hear me and I know you want to tell me if you don't.
How would a version of this on the Indigo website.
I won't spend any time on the title slide, we are talking about casting probes or fundamental physics.
Basically, you know, capture everything that's going on in the world of fundamental physics.
This is a new topic and group for snowballs 2021 guess this is really thought a triggered by many new discoveries in high energy neutrinos gravitational waves and there are a commodity counterparts.
And I set up my privacy cosmic ray evidence for tension between provide, and
inferred solid inferred and measure values of the constant.
We receive a total of 140.
We received a total of hundred and 40 letters of interest. 71 with CF seven s main topic by messengers, it was 3020 to 3545, based on gravitational waves cosmic rays neutrinos and protons, roughly equal number, some fluctuation there about 32 focused
on exclusively theory, and the rest were on experiments and detectors.
This is a bit old plans for future activities.
But the format will be the same name be in the next weeks, we will have short talks by people who are author altering the various white papers, could be taught topic focus meetings rather than let us of interest.
We have already identified as, as we will see, captains to take the leadership.
So these meetings will enable collaboration across experiments, as well as helping us better understand the scope of the white papers, so that the convenience can begin to really prepare them for the date that has changed in the coming slides you would
see some of the revised timelines.
So we are proposing 13 white papers. Some of these are with other frontiers.
I won't read them all. But what we did was to go through all the letters of interest group them by the topics that we were talking about. We contacted think in almost all cases, they may be one or two still remaining.
We contacted the artists of the letters of interest and put them in touch with each other and we also
discuss some of these things in the community planning meeting last year.
So, there is a list in the presentation that I have uploaded you will see those things so I won't go through all of them in, in full detail, but what you will notice is that there is, they could be sometimes overlaps with other cosmic Bhatia groups, especially
on the fundamental physics here. You see, dark matter ultra light photons, dark photons it ons.
That could be explored with some of the instruments and detectors that are being talked about in this frontier. similarly cosmology. There are three white papers here.
There is a lot of commonality between the other frontiers here and we have to be mindful of those and also discuss with
other topical groups, whether it is good to bring them to whether or not that's something that we need to this place.
There are white papers and gallery experiments high energy and Alzheimer GDP numbers I'm mostly highlighting and low things that might have overlaps significant overlaps with other groups.
Okay, here is some timeline for white paper writing.
So now, was December 2020 we identify
captains for each white paper, and be contacted think almost all of them.
The device timeline will be that in the next month or so, we will have outlines.
For each white paper, showing what will be covered.
Maybe just section heads, and some few sentences under each with an input and all the documents.
In March, 2022, we hope to have the first draft draft of white papers that are available to see observing and Venus.
Davis, their summary report and, and it will be discussed the July 2022 community summer studying so Muslim.
The rest of this document is going to talk in more detail about what are the topics that are going to be discussed under each white paper, what I think will be most useful for this meeting is to simply give you some updates, in some cases you will see
that captains have already started an overly document or a doc, where they're assembling the white paper, but not in all cases in some cases, people really took a break, and they are restarting just now and we are contacting, some of them.
Over the next week or what we will do instead is to give you an update from some of the white paper captains and white paper leaders. So I'll just
transition through the various slides, giving the, you know, 10 seconds or so for you to read through the list, they're all there in the presentation.
And we have intentionally mentioned, the authors so that you can get in touch with them and if you are interested in contributing to these topics you can contact them and and start to contribute to white papers that are being prepared by these captain's.
So the first update is from one of the three white papers that is being prepared.
Under cosmology. So the 13th I mentioned also includes these three white papers.
within the next week or so in fact they already circulated some due to fall and they probably have already decided. We haven't heard but we will soon be restarting weekly meetings here and there will be a dedicated workshop in the middle.
The cosmology, second white paper.
There is no update.
We need to interact with CF one bound to be some linkages here, and we will be in touch. As soon as possible to to facilitate those containers.
The third white paper on cosmology
has some update, mostly instigated by some comments that are made in this document that is linked off here I you know you can.
It was also provided during the plenary session.
And the, the probably would be to add gravitational waves as groups of magnetic waves matter of symmetry and impatience and I think this rightfully belongs to this group.
We will put those that are, that made this suggestion in touch with the captain so this one.
There is no update on gamma experiments, there were a number of white papers that were received
as, as indicated here there's already a woman the document on some of these activities. update from white paper six high energy and ultra high energy neutrinos.
neutrinos from gv to EV that's going to take place between September 28 and October 1. For details, you can visit the website that is indicated here.
There's also an update from ultra high energy cosmic rays.
The white paper is currently under discussion, number of coordinators, as with the others have been identified. And there is a dedicated workshop line.
In next month.
From gravitational wave facilities, there is an update, namely the COSMIC EXPLORER project has completed the NSF funded horizon study.
You can download the study document, and the website cosmic explorer.org also provides a VIP form to provide feedback on the horizon study, they have any suggestions and things that are missing, you can certainly provide those.
We know that some of the other groups have started to plan some workshops for broader discussion, but we did not. I mean I have seen some of those things but I have not received it as part of the gospel frontier.
There is one special white paper, which has been flying. This is similar in spirit to the multi messenger one paper one, which is synergy between Astro particle and polite or physics.
This, I mean, the FPF white paper on synergy between activate and energy neutrino cosmic frontiers is coming out this week, we will provide kind number.
I mean this was supposed to be meeting before this meeting, I haven't checked with a because appear. So, if anybody knows things, let me know. And
that's about it. This last one is about. It's a theory paper it has connection to theory frontier.
And we are in touch with the theory to have the topic of groups and brought here to have a john paper.
So with that, we are ready to take any questions I think seven of my colleagues are in the audience. So please direct your questions to either them.
Thank you.
Okay, I think I saw Luis his hand first.
Yeah, so, an extra updates on what.
Sasha was reporting. So, I think, one that perhaps is important. So the paper about cosmology.
The top Chinese Eleonora the Valentino.
So, this is the one that we've been working for the last five months I believe meeting monthly and now we are going to decide. A meeting every other week, but we want to make two different types of meetings, one available to people in basically in the
US at reasonable time for the US and some other one for reasonable times in Europe. So earlier nada Sam doodle poles for that for that particular white paper to all day.
I think we have like 400 or 150 people involved in a white paper, please everybody, complete the doodle poll so as we can determine which will be there.
The next weekly meetings that we are going to have and yes we are going to collect water shop, November, allow that one.
And the other point that I wanted to highlight is that we changed some of the cup times on some of the white paper so we should refresh the, the slack document, which is pointing to our in some cases to the old times.
So I think we should we should update that I received a couple of emails today from people that want to contribute to the 14th to the ultra high energy cosmic ray paper, in which the captains of change.
And so I directed to them but we should we should refresh it.
Thank you. Thank you. Our last one is thick so the white paper on there for our physic facility that Jonathan sent to all of us, a draft led sweet guy, you're right, right he had yeah he had it.
Today on that guy, He's the first one.
Okay, I just put the. I just updated the Google Slides on it, so sorry. Okay. Yeah, sure. Okay, thank you. Until next.
Yes. So basically, I just want to clarify, but this competition wave. So at some point, you know, professional ensure they're in most of these CF something that we didn't see a 456 they had done so much with educational toys, but none of us actually writing
any any suits white paper waves unless you have quite a few. So is then is now agreement that CF sand will basic cover everything that goes center under the G interconnection to physics and other experiments, but not necessarily, for instance, he have
And the facilities will have gravitational waves. I know that in some of the dark matter. People have been specifically selected to write about, Doc Martens searches using repetition may observations.
They originally submitted to I think it was see have three.
I saw for instance Marsha Marsha Marsha by the name, and she cheese
really talking about at least in part about gravitational way observations, being used to probe dark matter, an oxymoronic call I was on a platter. So, Not everything will be covered by CF seven but truly do not linkages across multiple frontiers as a
it's true with almost all frontiers. And we just need to make sure we don't miss any of the letters of interest that as of today. Yeah, thanks for.
Thanks.
Tracy was next.
Yeah, I just want to check but you mentioned on the second cosmology paper you wanted to coordinate with CF one, is there a coordinator for that paper I didn't see it on the slide like Captain or a lead on that.
Louis.
you are probably the best to answer that question.
So, we can you post again this slide, I don't know how we know. Okay, I'm just I'll just share the screen, so that you can see.
I think we are talking about.
This one here. Yeah.
Yeah, cuz you had to talk to see f1 and see if there's any linkage and I think you know we definitely be happy to have that conversation I'm just wondering who we should talk to.
Yeah, it's all these one we didn't even defy anyone yet not identify but at some point we've we started the you started some discussion with us, you send a couple of emails, at the end of last year.
And, yeah, okay, so maybe let's have a chat about that or any other, I mean like see f3 might be interested to ya I can imagine some other areas might be interested what let's, let's just keep that in mind to chat.
No, but I think there are some I know for a fact, for instance, Sarah.
Chandra, and link soon. And all, and also Andrew Miller they are already started to kind of coordinate writing so we should get in touch with you very soon.
Okay, thanks. Yeah, thank you.
Okay, okay.
Yeah, just a kind of a side note for the China neutrino paper I think we actually stopped at a time when the when the post palm decision came when we were actually identifying the captains, so the captains, we want only like one or two of them were confirmed
and we haven't yet find a chance to confirm the rest of them or to make sure that they are still on the same page. So talking about that i think it might be hard for that.
See if someone has a town hall together in a near term so that everyone can be put together on the same page.
Okay, great.
And speaking of neutrinos I guess there was a question earlier in the chat about where the topic of relic cosmological relic neutrinos should appear. So very low energy ones not the high energy ones.
Do you.
Yeah. Yeah, we have some Li, that is also submitted, including CF seven so, but right now we do not have a white paper on that direction yet. It might be good to also check was the neutrino frontier to see if they have a paper.
My understanding is there is a paper, organized by the nutritional frontier. The enough for, I believe, on the supernova neutrino, and that one probably can go down to.
Also the neutrino relic nutritional background but I'm not entirely sure. So right now the handle.
Today I spoke to Napa MOOC and Halsey, and so on, they confirm that staff that it's organizing that workshop that it's listed there. So, that he said white paper coming out with the title of the workshop, every single donor cleaners from ZVTB.
And there is a section on that white paper that we've got our work, we were discussing the other section is called high energy ultra high energy, maybe after that workshop they divide these big white paper into several ones but now from the moment that
is like a Chanel white paper with different sections, mixing them Trina frontier.
They are dedicated time specifically to discuss this white paper on fuss, no muss.
It's on the it's on the, on the scale on the power of the water shop that is something that says, white paper discussion, and I talked to the with the people there and I think I mean well they understand is that they are going to discuss all the topics,
but for the moment, it's a big umbrella white paper that covers neutrino frontier and cosmic frontier, maybe we want to split that, and the other point is that I saw that that was only regarding town cleaners, and there is nothing in there about the other
other flavors, but probably, that's the title of they have the confidence to make it attractive or different from the other ones and they will treat all of them but we should be careful about that.
And that's that all sounds good. Um, but I think Aaron was asking about the question in the chat window for the, the cosmic relic neutrinos at like 10 to the minus four electron volts.
So, I think the highest energy neutrinos are mostly in the hand between CF seven and that for, as well as some component from Syria frontier that cosmic relic neutrino as well as supernovae neutrino the MeV to gv neutrino is in the hand of nutritional
frontier right now, but we might get into some discussion at later face.
We have some discussions on ineffective the effective number of neutrinos into the early universe, this is in that paper that Eleonora is got an 18, the cosmology white paper I mentioned, I mean it's not only neutrinos is all like species in Delhi universe.
So, in that part we will be linked to that but not to the detection of the background on all the things that are supernovas you were mentioning.
Okay, so let's continue this discussion offline I think we have to move on to the next session. So thank you very much everyone.
So next one is a CF one article, dark matter.
And I believe we have a number of convenience online today.
Yes, I think I am unmuted Right, okay. I think I had been nominated to be the person to talk as the one who might have at least distractions during this time period.
But these slides and these ideas of course are on behalf of all of the CO, owners of CF one myself he will Lippincott Tracy Slater and just as of this week TMTNU who has joined us.
And we of course want to think, Tommy and Lynn, who helped us, you know, with great leadership and ideas.
Over the course of the last year but isn't going to be able to help us very much in this reboot session.
So to give you an idea.
So where we are right now is we had about 150 li submitted, including the class listings to see f1 and this was just, we thought this is great, it's a huge amount of community interest, we have a lot of ideas.
And as far as we can tell us the most of any of the topical working groups.
And so, in the month before the pause, we realized that somehow we were going to have to corral.
All of these allies and all of these ideas into something that was digestible. And so our idea was started a spin off of of astronomy and come up with the 10 big questions, sort of white papers and so our hope was to take these hundred and 50 lol wise,
and somehow.
I don't wanna say like consolidators and we're making any of their ideas or lesser, but is there some way we could group them into a smaller number of papers that would might be digestible amongst that science things so that we can better communicate
this essentially.
And so this is where our big 10 questions are big questions, white papers came from.
So, the CF one summary paper then it's going to be prepared by the containers and based primarily on these big questions, white papers. And so we've record.
We've recruited coordinators for each of the white papers just before the pause, and we've been spending the last week or so trying to reach out to everyone.
Figure out who still can still continue with us as far as coordinating these white papers. And then in the cases where we've had to replace some of the coordinators, starting to work towards finding new recruits.
And, of course, the people who are coordinating these white papers are coordinating all sorts of people who are contributing to the white paper so it's not that we're, you know, saying there's three or four people who are the only people who contribute
to the big the big question white papers. It's just that we want to have central contacts to try to keep it more manageable. And so in the next few slides.
We're going to show the working proposals that we have right now for those white papers and the current status of what we envisioned would be in those white papers and who has agreed so far to leave them.
So, indirect detection. So we divided these up into a couple couple of categories and direct detection we have sort of for thematic papers going on.
The first one is the direct detection to the neutrino floor, and we're looking here, we're defining this as essentially above the mass of the proton, the coordinators for this paper.
Our first question, Rick state seal Christiana girl Balti, and then Lord.
It's a multi skill portfolio includes abroad energy range and experimental costs.
And like I said, mainly this paper is supposed to be focusing on dark matter candidates and detection they're above a gv and sort of a reasonable time scale for sort of a generation three so we're thinking that's like about 10 years for construction operation
and acknowledging of course that we can't do everything in d3, and that everything in there isn't necessarily a d3 experiment.
Then the second paper is the landscape of low threshold detection and so this is sort of primarily focusing below a gv and again this gv is sort of a fuzzy boundary just somewhere that we've picked.
So we have a brand gram Giovanni K, Nick. Noah currency, Dan McKinsey and then we'd like to have one more for neither yet, but we're still searching for that person.
So part of this is restating the DRM cosmic visions for low threshold detectors potentially because we did have a lot of interest from people who had ideas there.
It includes a theory to motivate a description of the new wave of experimental ideas in this area, thinking about how you handle different phases of different types of experiments and new novel ideas, and so that paper, we started to see in those directions.
The third paper, we see is focusing on sort of calibration and backgrounds for direct detection, the coordinators for this paper are damn Baxter Ray bunker, Sally shot and Shawn Wester Dale.
And so here.
The primary focus we got a lot of lol is thinking about novel ways that we might need to develop new techniques for calibrating some of these, these futuristic detectors and thinking about the backgrounds, the types of backgrounds that these new detectors
might encounter and ways that we can understand them.
So improvements for understanding detector calibration backgrounds to support or enable the direct detection program over the next decade. What might those be.
Are there common needs or issues that run across experiments that people can coordinate together on
an endorsement perhaps of low energy. Nuclear recoil sources, wherever they might be. And then of course the the thing that's really coming up as I think especially when you're starting to look at these lower mass experiments is discussion of noise sources.
And the fourth paper kind of deals broadly with the topic of theory simulation needs analyses statistics.
These sorts of tools for direct detection, the coordinators here are Yani con Marina Elena mo Zani and Kim palette, you know.
And again, looking at the theoretical developments we need to develop to enable the direct detection program.
Possibly it could cover effective theory theory techniques common statistical tool frameworks that are simulations new theory for primary and secondary interaction collective excitations sort of a whole host of things that that essentially we think could
fit into this paper.
Also, this paper could include support theory and interdisciplinary research so, especially as you're thinking about paper number two, there you're having a lot of condensed matter theory.
Materials theory ammo areas that haven't been a traditional concern to high energy physics.
The fifth paper so the next set of papers, I'm sort of fall under the umbrella of indirect detection.
So we have the landscape of cosmic rays and high energy proton probes particle physics, the coordinators here are single RM Aki, Stephen Profumo and Philip Von D Chung, the broad scope indirect detection paper, this is, this is it.
And it covers the electromagnetically interacting messengers.
not neutrinos not gravitational waves.
It includes x rays gamma rays, and sort of charged particles or antiparticles
a possible milestone would be targeting the full mass range of sort of the thermal ish Dark Matter bounded by warm Dark Matter limits, and above unitary it discussion of the cosmology that allows the vision of the invasion of unitary balance.
The paper could briefly discuss discuss primary primordial black holes.
And then of course, we're hoping this paper will cover the synergies with multi layered with wavelength or messenger astrophysics measurements of dark matter density, and the dark matter distribution.
The sixth paper, we envisioned to be on puzzling accesses and how to resolve their origin or existence.
So, Rebecca lane. Leon Yang. And one more person who we need to replace. So to be determined for this paper, likely This would include the galactic center access the 3.5 KEV line anti protons and any others.
People can think over, or that come along.
It could include also the Dominic cross check experiments in direct detection and modulation analyses, and essentially the focus here. We're thinking is like, what are the necessary steps that are achievable in the next decade to get a clear answer, one
way or the other, as to whether we are seeing dark matter physics, you know physics candidates, or are we seeing some other interesting physics or some unexplained background that hopefully we can get an explanation for the seventh paper talks about the
synergies between Dark Matter searches multi wavelength multi messenger astrophysics, and understanding Astro physical backgrounds, and we have coordinators for that.
Short stocky for Joe and Devin Walker, and then we have one more person who we need to replace for this paper so volunteers are welcome. Please contact us if you're interested.
So what astrophysics Do we need here to better understand and improve Dark Matter searches. How do we go after it.
This can include in this paper we're imagining including both theoretical and observational work.
And then our last paper that we're proposing is the ultra heavy particle dark matter. So this is essentially probing the heaviest Dark Matter candidates, the coordinators here are Andrea, Albert and Dan party.
So we have Slack channel setup for each of these big questions papers. So if you're interested in any of them interested contributing to them. If you feel like you have a white paper or you are still submitting some ideas, and it fits into one of these
topics, please make sure you reach out to the coordinators for those papers and make us aware.
So, I will list all the channels here. The the slides are now available on the Indiegogo page, but please feel free to join them.
Um, regarding the length of the papers. We didn't set a link for each paper we we assume these are going to vary by topic, some topics, just will take more time or more space than others, but we do encourage the coordinators to keep the paper.
So exciting and impactful as possible.
And then, of course, we are welcoming the community to provide details and help the coordinators flush out the studies and contribute by additional white papers so these big questions papers, could be pointing to white papers that, that are out there.
Are these the only white papers that we have for CF one. The answer is no additional white papers can and should be submitted as part of the last record.
We want everyone in who's working within the CF one framework to work together and to keep us informed of what you're doing, or if it is that you know you're working with something that's tangential to us for feedback into the CF Summary Report.
The science should be mentioned in the big questions by paper
regarding our timeline. So this is the timeline that sort of been relayed out here. And so we have put in here a couple of points. So we're hoping, as far as within CF one some of our internal deadlines.
By November 1 we'd like to see outlines for these big questions papers.
And by January 31, we want to have the big questions first draft. And then by February 28th, to have these papers these big questions papers in very good form, so that we can start working on putting together the final feedback.
We are always interested in more contributors.
There is a link here to a Google documents.
Pull that you can fill out to let us know that you're interested in working it and working on, you know one of these papers.
You're also welcome to just reach out to one of the coordinators.
And in give feedback on the structure of of what we're doing.
That is everything we formally prepared today, Eric.
All right, thank you very much God. So, we have maybe about five minutes for questions and comments.
I guess we must have been perfectly clear.
Everybody is just so pleased with.
I guess I'll just maybe say one thing that while of course you should feel free to sign up using the Google Doc I think people who want to contribute at the state should also just feel free to like go to the slack channels and stop talking to the coordinators
see f1 did pretty much completely paused during the pause, as far as I know, I'm not aware of major work on any of these white papers, so far, so you know if you if you want to get involved now is a good time to get involved.
And I think he should feel free to just like talk to the coordinators of the paper you're interested in getting involved in, and jump right in.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, it probably is the most effective way to jump in, rather than waiting for us to look at a form and then try to match you up just me but you totally free to fill them up.
It's not necessary like I mean you can just talk directly to the coordinators jumping into slack channels Stop, stop doing stuff.
Okay, uh, we have a guest, Jen Shang pronounced.
Yeah, right. I have a specific question. So the US new webpage to to basically to join to join this is the web paper, good group of slack, there is no link.
So how to join us as as specifics like a slack. So, so public I think you should see them. If you're on the snow Maslak yeah I click as is Northern California for the for the was a real for this specific weather paper writing group, we write the slack
channels. I mean, so I think that on the Snowmass web page there are specific instructions on how to join the slack channels. And then, let me.
Yeah, I joined safe one Slack channel but this is not included, was there for the weather paper.
Specific weather paper. If you just, if I'm sorry if on Snowmass if you go to browse channels and look for ones that begin with CFO one, you should be able to find them all that I mean I guess we could add some links directly to the channels are not that
I guess so I mean, I see them all and I know they're not their public so I think if you just go to light browse channels and look the CFO one, but all of them begin with CFO one should be able to find.
So yeah all the channels just begin with the syntax, sorry.
I'm sorry that that's incorrect apologies begin with the syntax that I just put in the chat so just see CFO one and then a dash.
And that you should be able to see them all them. They're all published.
Kimberly was next.
Thanks. I think my comments might be kind of equal for all of our CF subgroups but what two things have come to mind in these discussions one, you know, our field has moved a lot in the last you know since the last know bass, and I personally expect it
to do the same before it happens again. So I think keeping in mind like leaving placeholders for the new things we want to happen to make sure that we're not writing it as if this is the only directions we think the field is going to go.
And then a little bit different than that I also was very impressed. In the plenary sessions by the rare events. Rare physics group explicitly saying what their p five goals were, and maybe there's some other things like that we can extract to, to, to
give some structure to the rest of our papers to make sure that it's really easy to pull that stuff out anyway those are kind of my comments and questions.
Alright. Thanks, Kevin. And then last one from Spain.
So my question is about directional Dark Matter detection has been a been a discussion in which show these big questions papers would fit into. I'll just mention that I proposed maybe to do a sort of an inter front tear paper with instrumentation.
Dark Matter neutrinos but I don't know if the new Snowmass format allows for those or not, should clarify. Yeah, so, so certainly this was something we discussed.
I remember before the before the before the work stoppage, and my recollection is as you as you had said I thought that that there was going to be some kind of cross paper with.
Was it the neutrino working group.
Yeah, neutrino.
That's right, yeah, yeah so I had.
And, and I guess I had been under the assumption that that model would continue but if that's not going to work.
We clearly will have to find a way to fit it in somewhere. I think that'll work I.
If that feeds our board that's okay I think I just want to make sure if all dark matter you know stuff that ends up in the final report has to go through your big questions, then it becomes important for everyone to integrate into those white papers,
I guess, you know, maybe I should clarify this that this enormous management summer holiday edition.
The Frontier reports and those inner frontier papers to work together in the end. Right. Why, why would it make sense to this to be an LLC have one report in which case we just have to make sure that the big questions are what we're primarily looking
the solely within CF one papers, but we should also be aware of stuff that intersects between the f1 and other areas, or do they want to start bringing that in at the level, about the CF one and two people perform and, and that was my exact like thought
when you ask this question that if if the structure of the entire frontier papers has broken down, then seemed to me that the dark matter particle.
The first paper on direct detection to the new neutrino floor was probably where it.
Most fit in the current scheme.
I mean we're definitely, I mean when God says, you know, like, if you want your science discussed in ICF one summary you should try to make sure it's at least mentioned in the big questions that is primarily thinking about science that fits purely within
the scope of CF one. There are certainly science topics that you know could be relevant to see f1 like indirect detection with neutrinos is another one that's you know not well covered here because it seemed like the neutrino frontier was covering that
on their own, so like we tried to make sure that everything was covered somewhere. But, you know, if we need to make sure that ends up in the CF one report then it'd be important for us to know about that in addition to our within CF one big questions
papers.
Other other sort of interdisciplinary inter or I guess cross frontier paper that or effort that's going on is complementarity.
There's a complementarity paper in dark matter.
Again, now that I haven't thought about in a long time and I haven't even had a meeting with the group that was working on that since prior to the shutdown, or being bus stop.
I shouldn't call it a shutdown, I suppose. It feels like it.
And it may be that I can't remember if that was one of, if you had any input to that paper or process as well.
Okay.
Move on, like five minutes late.
Alright, so let's.
If you anyone who's had still, still has questions maybe we can hang hang out a little bit later. Otherwise, please communicate offline. So now we have CF five and I believe Clarence Chang will represent that subgroup.
Yeah, hi.
I cleanse my sides.
Okay, so.
Hi, I'm clearness chain and I want to talk about what we're doing in the sci fi topical group, which has convener as being Lauren Newberg gear to Shoemaker and myself.
So, see f5 did take a full pause for the coven break and we are now just starting things back up so what I thought I do here is just recap on what we kind of did and where things left off.
So, just as an overview and this is at the Snowmass web page, the CF five cosmic acceleration in the early universe deals with cosmic pros of cosmology into early universe from input the information era three of the cosmic dawn, and that cosmic Dawn is
not the cosmic Dawn of the prior to cable.
And just to make things a little bit more concrete. The topics include things such as the growth of structure probe so for example, mapping structure through say to 21 centimeter power spectrum probes of expansion history CBAO with this case black hole
mergers or CMB primordial non galaxy entity and inflation and kind of experimental experimental techniques include everything from you know high redshift gravitational wave observatories 21 centimeter projects and things like submit CMB and millimeter
wave intensity mapping projects.
So prior to the break right we had received Li some we had Snowmass community planning meeting. What we did in CF five is that we assemble a working group within names listed there to help distill and to synthesize.
What was brought up during those processes so for example here is a table, made by Robert Scoble kind of summarizing and classifying the otherwise that we received an end of this process, it became clear that several broad themes did seem to be emerging.
These things overlap and surprisingly with the topics I've put on the previous slide, and these things form the basis for what we are calling our solicited white papers.
Right. So what we are intending to do or what we are doing is we are soliciting nine white papers from the community, I'll bring up those topics on nights, next slide of.
It is possible. Very likely actually that these white papers definitely do touch upon other topics. In fact they there's largely probably a lot of overlap.
And that's by virtue of how things are broken down that that is there there is no diagonal ization here. So we do expect things to kind of overlap and potentially there will need to be some coordinating or even perhaps combining of papers, as the process
moves forward.
The objective here is to have members of the community write these nine solicited white papers again I'll bring them up in the next slide.
People are always welcome to submit an independent white paper. That is good.
But it. We also do want to encourage people to contribute to the solicit papers as well. towards that and each paper has, you know, we call it a community volunteer you've heard to work captains for coordinators to help coordinate the white, the writing
these white papers and can be broken down into kind of two classes, one is a quote unquote theory white paper that synthesizes kind of the theoretical landscape highlighting the interest and importance of the topics to high energy physics in particular,
and to give some sense as to what we were thinking here we reference so that link there is a reference to a Snowmass white paper from last the last known as process.
And the first section of that paper kind of is an example in this case of things like neutrinos and NF into early universe.
The second flavor of white paper is what we call it measurement white paper in this discusses different experimental approaches to advance our understanding of the above.
Physical topics.
And these can include projections of experimental reach, they can include discussing the current and future state of the field and associated technical challenges and example of this is also highlighted in the link that I second section of that paper
there.
Okay, so here we get to the list of the papers so their names like I said there are community volunteers attached to to each. This was prior to the break.
So it's possible that some of these volunteers may change, and we are working through that right now.
So within the theory, the theory class of white papers. There are four of them one is inflationary science through things like non galaxy entity and primordial features and B modes into CMV.
There's a topic of light relics, which which likely overlaps with things being discussed and CF seven.
And then there's beyond Standard Model cosmology so this is beyond the Standard Model of particle physics cosmology, so things like early universe phase transitions and phenomena like that.
And then there's what we call it beyond standard cosmology, and this is connected to things like how kind of testing the basis of the underlying cosmological model in particular trying to understand how low redshift and high redshift observable either
agree or disagree and what that might mean.
On the measurement side, there are measurements including things like the stochastic gravitational wave background line intensity mapping with the 21 centimeter line.
millimeter wave intensity mapping and CMB experiments and optical surveys, I believe, that is all I have prepared. So, thanks. Hopefully this helps us make up time Aaron.
Okay, very good. Thank you.
Alright, so any questions or comments for Clarence.
See you have a light relics white paper that might cover relic neutrinos.
Yeah, that's the theory paper, and I guess the question before was about the experimental paper which might be in the neutrino frontier.
And, oh,
ni Lima.
Yeah. Just a quick question. So, on this slide there are many names that I'm sorry, there are a few names from many many papers like Clarence Your name is at least listed on three.
So, what is the role of the names listed here and will people be contacted to actually do the writing or are these people when can be doing the writing.
Yeah, the thinking is that these are the people who will be coordinating so they should be reaching out to the broader community to put the process together to do the right thing
that happened already or will we expect that you should expect that to happen.
Okay, thank you.
All right. Any other comments.
Oh, it looks like a Deirdre.
Just a quick comment that you know it's always it's very easy to not for people to miss those of the people that might want to contribute, and it won't be because of not wanting someone to contribute so I put the Slack channel in the chat.
And if anyone sees something they're excited about and want to contact us we'd be more than happy to put them in touch with these coordinators and get them involved.
Thanks drew Drew.
I guess the general point is that we really don't want to turn anybody away. It's just an organizational organizational matter of, kind of like when you show up at a wedding reception, which table are you supposed to go to.
And if you don't know, asked us and we'll, we'll figure it out.
I guess we have a few more minutes.
No one speaking up I guess maybe I can also comment that I once you have been assigned to a table and have a group of people and you can work with. That's really great that you can then make really make sure that your ideas and your topics are really
Incorporated.
But then it's also good when we're writing the summary reports that we're aware of the connections to all the other other white papers and other moves and frontiers.
So that in, it says it's when we're writing the summaries that's really our job to kind of point out the connections as well. So please be encouraged to reach out to us if you, if you are wanting to help us before summarizing
okay so we got another hand up from you that we die.
Yeah, so I also follow what you say and what Kim, Kimberly said that.
So recently, there's a lot of new development of using planetary science data, whether it's for exoplanet asteroids, or interests that are objects to study dark matter or other fundamental physics.
So if people are interested I created a Slack channel just for, I think the star was planetary, and people can come in or discuss and maybe we can write a white paper together and certainly I would suggest to the CF one or other related relevant channel
that maybe these could be included because this is a fast growing kind of subfield.
Thanks.
You think that would most naturally belong in CF one or three.
I'm not sure so I made a question and people were saying is more on the CF seven perceive seven is cosmic probe which is very different from like a planetary study because for the planners study, which is a quick word that you use radar astronomy, which
is very different from all the other astronomical studies. So this is kind of missed by the community for a little bit. And I also want to bring up these because there is a huge radar astronomy community that we can connect to, in terms of studying fundamental
physics, combined with optical measurement as well so I'm actually not sure what is the nature place to to host all a planetary can connecting to fundamental physics topic, but I think this can fit in many different category, I think.
Yeah.
I think my part of our split was that if it's dark matter such as it's probably should at least be talking to a CF one and tier three if it's fundamental physics beyond doc matter with me cosmic probes just really meaningful astrophysical cosmological
probes.
you should probably at least be talking to see f7.
If that's beyond that if it's other kinds of fundamental things yeah so not doing hard.
I think she had three is thinking, just in the context of multiple probes is probably thinking a bit about like radio signals and stuff related to your 21 centimeter insulin.
Thanks.
And then back to Clarence then I noticed that, for example, this, this idea of like using stochastic measuring stochastic backgrounds as gravitational waves that Robert Caldwell's working on I noticed that that's now turned into a community white paper
in CF seven.
So I think that's perfectly fine it's just decent somewhere and it kind of sounds like that's been sorted out.
Is that the case.
I think we're just restarting and, and certainly any place where it looks like we can consolidate and minimize the burden on all of us will definitely take those opportunities.
So yeah, if it looks like most of that is going to be consolidated, or can be captured in a single white paper to see if seven that's then cross listed that that would also be fine.
Any last questions for sirens and CF five, parents and Deirdre and Zf side.
And I guess tallies.
I see Talia is on the line Natale you're our liaison to neutrino frontier and then there's at least a couple of areas that were pointed out by k fog and others that were a we kind of need to sort out who's going to be doing what and how we're going to
collaborate, both in the area of relic like relic neutrinos. And what was the other one the ultra high energy neutrinos.
So, hope you'll be able to help us out with that totally.
Yeah, I wrote those down, and I've been swinging back and forth between the neutrino and cosmic frontiers all day which is always challenging on zoom but
it's on my. Yes. Okay, thank you very much.
Alright so then let's move on to the next session, which is see f6 dark energy cosmic acceleration complementarity of probes and new facilities, and David Schlegel provide the status.
Yes. Okay, I will get us ahead of schedule again, all about schedule and budget.
Um, okay. So these are just actually the same slides, basically, that we use for as the CMT s for collaboration, meaning a few weeks ago so if you were there.
You've seen this, now's a good time to go get your coffee.
Okay, so see f6 convenience have been Brenda flower myself. She weighed, she way has actually asked her rotate off but Aaron will just mentioned, I have been working at cross purposes to you trying to keep her from rotating off.
Maybe I shouldn't say that publicly. But anyway, so she's, she's still engaging with us, even though I know you're looking for a new co convener.
Okay, I'm not going to talk through these slides that we've all talked about schedule we're all basically on the same schedule so CF sex was very much on pause until now.
Okay, that this group, it, it does have these two fairly disparate themes. So, one being complementary probes and the others being new facilities.
And before I go any further, I'll just say that we spent more time than we should have arguing about discussing, you know, what should this be what should actually be see f6 versus others.
Our intention was actually to minimize overlap as much as possible actually between the other CS, just from this view of snow miles process we're supposed to.
Unlike much data analysis where the data gets bigger or supposed to, you know, compress down to a final report next year so so in that view.
So from kind of the the legalese perspective, we've taken the narrow interpretation of, including and CF six. What is not obviously included in other CS.
Okay, so we have a community planning workshop was last November that was just before we hit pause.
So let me just come to the, the solicited white papers and so our term on this isn't leads or captains wherever ours are facilitators, meaning that they're not necessarily even the lead authors or, or however interpret it but the people to coordinate
so so if folks get in touch with us and like oh we want to be contributing to such and such. I guess we're interpreting our role as I'm making these connections happening but we basically just be putting you in touch with the, the facilitators listed
here right now.
right now. Okay so this isn't the slides that are posted. Unfortunately there, there's one or two of these links that aren't public public. So you'd actually have to get in touch with the facilitator.
I'll try to get that change I was just noticing that again today.
But it's.
As far as the solicited white papers.
There are these three, and to just talk about these a little bit.
So join analysis. So, three of the three solicitor white papers from there on this joint analysis theme.
So, the first being join a NASA static probes on not meant to replicate CF 4614 or five whichever, but to talk about the new science that is enabled with the joint analysis of different projects.
So a lot of this is happening right now with current projects, and so like I could speak to.
Desi NCMB experiments right now so we're, we're making sure that those analyses can happen.
And, you know, sure joining analyses have been going on for a long time but but
I think we see a lot more of this on the horizon, which is why there is this charge.
And so we want to make sure that the science that isn't enabled without this is enabled.
There's also the question of increasing robustness of results by being able to do this. And then there. There is a question of how might this impact how kind of some of these big projects are actually wrong, and, and, would there be cost impacts and so
forth to existing projects. Okay so, one of these lists that of white papers is static probes.
One having to do with transit probes on so again join analysis, if it's transits discovered analysis T.
Follow up with totally other projects, things like that.
That is where this goes.
And then the third one here. Collaboration structure for joining analysis so that you know this is an interesting topic of,
you know, we have some people pushing for, you know, maybe this should be viewed more at the project level of really enabling
data sets from other large typically large projects where people don't have their foot in the door on these several projects so so right now.
projects that it's a very ad hoc basis of developing mo use between, say, Simon's observatory and Desi what a lot of these are going on.
Maybe that's sufficient, maybe it's not, but this is, this is the point of this particular right paper to address. What's really needed.
And that's,
you know, do, do we need something in collaboration structure to enable us better, and not just for the data, but also for simulations.
Okay.
So those are the three white papers in progress right now they're they're each have a different point, new facilities. So that's the other charge in our name.
So again taking this narrow interpretation. We like to see the new facility discussions happen under the other CX, this is what we conclusion we finally came to start we're not repetitive here.
So there's been some comments like God is Let's go and see f6, you know, facilities it's in the name. I'm sorry, answer to that is no. Let's make sure that happens under CF for seven or whichever it is.
And then potentially what we're looking at is we could put together a summary of what is going on to the other CS, because you know it might be useful to just see you know if these are spread amongst other subgroups to actually, at least get a summary
of these in one place. So that's what we're thinking there.
Okay, so I think that's essentially actually everything I want to say just included in the slides are the submitted.
lol eyes that are relevant to the white papers that I just outlined so that's all in there with hyperlinks.
And I think that's all I want to say right there.
Great. Thank you, David.
Me questions or comments, us, Stephen.
Yes, thank you. I actually have a question right on that last point.
The, the idea of just splitting facilities, between gravitational waves and dogmatic completely. I'm wondering whether we're not missing out on possible synergies by completely separating facilities on that, that side.
So if we do that, would there be a way to keep the connection to other facility work going. So, you know, each facility could include prototype work as well.
And so I want to make sure these connections exist.
Well some of the.
I think we've decided, so those facilities so that would go entirely under.
I don't mind it going somewhere else and just what I'm, you know, there's two different facilities in two different ways. Nobody is actually talking to each other.
So we're developing different infrastructure without ever talking to each other. that's when I will never always.
Sorry, can you just give me a specific example of what you're thinking.
I, for example you gonna have to develop prototypes to some of the new facility or things like that and there might be places where you can do that much simpler, if, if we talk to underground facilities and things like that.
You know I'm coming from the gravitational wave side, but that might be synergies that exists that I mean destruction is fine as long as they make sure we have the connections in place, and have the right leaders also 20 seconds.
Right.
Well, and to make sure that it is actually being written into the most relevant solicited white paper.
I guess I think a lot of us were pushing solicited white papers to know if need be authentic. That's all fine and just just want to make sure the connection exists to other facilities where we're appropriate.
I mean, if it's a joint analysis question then then obviously that goes into one of the three that I just outlined.
Yeah, so yeah so join analysis of gravitational wave events. Yeah.
This is just you know if example if you develop a way to get a cheaper vacuum system for instance this sort of stuff that's relevant for more than one place and then I just want to make sure to connections access so no additional waste this first time
part of this so I'm a little worried about just complete being in a separate window.
That's all.
I guess the issue is that for the other frontier is there, there might be like specific wish list for for new things like 100 TV collider for the energy frontier or neutrino factory for the beach you know frontier.
So there's a question of do we, in the, in the final report do we want to have a section where we have the wish list for new facilities and and what they would.
What kind of science, they would enable, and that.
So I don't think that necessarily has to be like together at the top level but but certainly there's a advantage in.
In, putting them together in a single section in the final report, then we'll definitely try and do that.
That sounds good.
Any other questions, comments.
everyone was sort of happy that they think they know what's going on and know how
they can personally contribute.
still have about, I don't know five minutes or so until the next session which is the engagement with the computing frontier in which they wanted to kind of find out what our computing needs for very are the next generation of experiments.
So people can thank God for that if they have something they'd like to discuss with frontier.
In general, it's good to have these average sessions with the other frontiers as well.
Want to avoid the trap of just kind of hanging out and talking with people are in our own
words.
I guess while we're waiting maybe I can ask another question to David. So, I see a lot of your,
your topics are i'm joined analysis. but there's one
requirements of facilities whatever needed for joint analysis thinking that's having anything in particular in mind, that is it that the funding agencies aren't providing enough support or infrastructure to allow people to work across experiments or projects.
Yeah, I mean, there's
an assumption question so like a lot.
I think will be coming out, just to speak of something that I know something about at least between
cross correlation across power measurements between CMB, and Galaxy maps.
So you can have two experiments where you know even they're both maybe they're even both funded by the same funding agency right so maybe it's to do experiments.
Once MB.
One as galaxy maps.
People are in one project or another.
And a lot of, you know, exciting results are going to come out of the joint analysis of those two. But then there's, I mean you could.
Our young collaborators definitely view this as a,
you know, kind of artificial boundaries between projects, have you know that they just want to, you know, download or whatever have access to both catalogs or Macs and do some playing.
But instead, like we just spent a year negotiating and mo you between Simon's observatory and does he have for anyone could do anything. And actually that doesn't even quite yet.
Allow the analysis to happen. So it's, it's, it's very clunky trying to do this. And there are reasons for that, but I think now's a good time to step back and just see, is there organizationally a different way to do this that would just make it easier.
Okay, now and then, and then, then you throw in like new machine learning approaches and things like that and then, then, then you really want access to a lot of data.
Like I guess the next session is the computing frontier engagement, and I saw Debbie Bard here. Debbie Are you going to be leading that or are we waiting for Steve.
No, I'm not leaving this, we should be waiting for the other people to come in and lead.
I guess you are our liaison to the computing frontier, is that correct, yes I'm one of two days on the computer.
So I can tell you that it's actually on this get you. I'm also one of the computing folks on 15, minutes, maybe there was some miscommunication. But
anyway, um, so you can actually start thinking about this. So the first question that you will be asked is, what are your concerns about computing and what keeps you up at night.
So, we would like to hear that from you.
David is everything going okay in terms of analyzing huge data sets from the optical service.
Oh, I think I want to pass on to, I just see other people on here who can answer better just seemed like clarity carburetor Stephen bail and I think you should pipe that.
Yeah, there was a nurse, outage last night that impacted our ability to process the data.
So I think you on one hand it's working well for Desi I lead data management for that. But we also planned ahead of time to be working at a high performance computing facility.
And I think the community could be doing much better with cross facility workflows. Combining, you know, the ability to flip back and forth between different locations, the ability to combine data sets from different locations.
Looking forward to. No, Ellison's defines a transients and wants to check whether other surveys have information about it already, how do we coordinate all of that is a area that we could be doing much better as a community and could be using more support
on.
We have a hand up from Arjun.
Hi, thanks.
In the spirit of things that I worry about regarding computing I think one issue that has not really been fully addressed I feel is how we make data from these large surveys etc public.
And by that I just don't mean for the purpose of coordination between the different facilities, but also actually public so that people around the world can access them easily and use them.
It's always something that we rarely budget into our, the way in which we structured programs, small cost, but it is something that usually gets lost in the, in the shuffle.
And then we sort of, you know, to ourselves around that last minute trying to find money or find collaborators or find ways of making it public to make it actually useful as opposed to just throwing the data across the fence.
So I just wanted to raise that issue as a possible topic for how we deal with I mean, I'm not sure where exactly it falls, it might fall within computing or it may fall within education or something else but it is a topic that you know as researchers
we rarely think about in a serious way in terms of how we fund it.
I put you on the spot Debbie, to make your points about the takeout model versus the full user facility model.
Ah, yeah, this is something that
various different groups have been thinking about within the do is how to structure a data you school data facility.
And the way that things typically are done in quite is kind of in the takeaway model which is where people stand up their own data source you know this might be something that is very little resource in a very basic way you know there's some data on desk
and perhaps a web portal to access that data and the idea is that the scientists, take the data away to do the analysis at their own institutions and it's cheap to do.
But it's, it's, it doesn't allow scientists to take advantage of combining data sets and using your rich metadata and provenance information so if you do the job properly to kind of have a diamond model, as well as a takeaway model you need to have a
much more sophisticated data facility. And I think that's something that's worth advocating for is is having a joint data facility where you can store data from different sources different experiments have perhaps, perhaps, access to computing significant
joint computing across these data sets you know there's a way that you can do this comprehensively that is a lot harder, you know involves a lot more work a lot more resources but can really take advantage of the data sets and as someone said before the.
This is usually, you know, something that is not resourced appropriately it's not something that is almost an afterthought, is being able to share this data and do cross experiments analysis thing that this could be a really strong direction for computing
in the future.
Let's study.
The stuff and Barbara's still on the line stuff in our youth still there.
Maybe not, but I guess I was just curious whether there are people working on next generation gravitational wave facilities.
Might need to enhance computing capabilities to render template searches.
Sorry.
I just basically dropped.
Oh yeah, I guess I was wondering like I, yeah, we can hear you. Can you hear us.
Yeah, now I can sorry it's just the Wi Fi kicking in.
On the cell.
So can you repeat the question. Yeah, I'm wondering like I know that the template searches that you guys would like to do for the gravitational wave, wave forms are usually pretty computationally intensive.
I was wondering if you're going to have even more stringent requirements and computing for next generation conservatories.
It's not extremely more stringent. I don't think we're all done Moore's law is I think the short question but we are definitely thinking about it. And the COSMIC EXPLORER horizon study definitely has a chapter on it so that's the place to point to where
we actually wrote that stuff down.
Okay. And then there was that earlier, we had an earlier discussion on how computing frontier can help in establishing the infrastructure for joint analyses of data from various, various types of telescopes and detectors.
And so, there's perhaps a way to feed the gravitational wave data streams into that as well.
Certainly, true yeah the other, the other thing that we stayed in horizon study is that the goal is for the, for the next generation data to be as open as, as feasible.
So, yeah, definitely, if that fits in. In some some some form of a unified distribution system that would make sense
to have to figure out how that looks.
I'd like to maybe get some. Any thoughts that people might have on whether what else beyond data needs to be shared going to comment just made in the slack that data is not, not the only thing that people need to have to be able to use data and you do
science you need to have understanding of the processing that's been applied to that data models.
Access to expertise understanding of uncertainties and statistical, and systematic errors. It's the things that people have been thinking about that would also need to be shared in order to do cross datasets analysis.
I guess that's the really hard thing for people who are like intimately connected and working daily on the experiment know all of the.
All of the oddities that affect the second measurements.
And maybe that's something that might be a topic within David cycles domain. So, how do you deal with this problem, where if the data cannot be reduced easily to
to clean the database format.
Were there other questions from competing frontier.
Hello.
Oi Hi. Yeah, so, Stephen all see Bali and I are here I think there are a few other people from the top groups from computational frontier. I think there was a slight misunderstanding when we were supposed to come, but we're here now, and I don't know
Steve if you want to lead the charge on the questions.
I had already started.
Okay, I joined write it for 50.
When we were supposed to start. Since the 445 slot wasn't quite available I was told, and I can show the questions if you can share the screen there you're there you from your slides.
Earlier today, but I think also happy for that what else to do it.
Yeah, let me know. If I share the right window.
I think you're seeing them now. Yes. Great.
Thanks, you know, since I'm showing them you could talk about them then since you already talked about them if you like. Great. Yes. So, yeah, I guess that I walked into her just talking about the first of these questions, and there isn't too much time.
And one of the things we definitely want to discuss is the last one which is if it would make sense to have a longer discussion at some point. And we're here mostly to figure out questions and not necessarily answers but to hear about the the the path
forward to getting into report so you can see here the questions and all these taking minutes which I will post once we start talking again.
Then we can jump to the second question, which is, you know what, what do we need to be aware of that and make sure we make sure it ends up in our report.
So I think that, in the ultra high energy cosmic ray white paper, they were.
I mean, I had a brief meeting with the captains, and the commissioners, and a couple of the commissioners brought up the some of these questions. And then we're going to dedicate a section or a subsection and section I believe about these on the paper.
So, I mean, and I can recall exactly what what were those points, and I think those guys left now. I don't see.
Oh no, then he's still here.
Are they nice, do you remember on Eric is still here, Eric Denny's, and I think your harness was some, the one that brought these products attention so you have any comments or, or maybe we can discuss these offline with them and what should be.
I mean, what would be a possible synergy with this computing frontier to.
Yeah, I think we discussed it in the context of extra analysis and how to apply machine learning methods in future analyses and stuff like that. I think it would definitely make sense to discuss it offline in the future.
And to coordinate these writing effort to bit.
Okay. Yeah, great.
So certainly we're happy to have, you know, feedback anytime and this is just kind of intended to start off to start a dialogue on one thing that we're particularly, particularly useful for us is, is if there are in terms of requirements and projections
for software computing, if there exists documentation for various experiments or simulations that that would be really helpful to getting started and if, and if there are plans for producing those projections requirements.
Yeah, going forward for Snowmass.
We had this conversation a few times already, but I think from the point of view of experiments that don't have a $30 million budget for software and computing.
The main concerns our support for community tours and the big one is jam for right do he does not support jam for anymore, which means we're not going to be able to build new experiments over again.
And the second one is, we're being pushed to use the data centers, but we have not been able to keep up with the evolution of the architecture of the data centers.
We don't have that kind of resources so I don't know how to make that in, in a, in a format that you can present it and so on. Yeah, i think that's already extremely helpful.
In fact, really, in almost all the discussions we've had today down for is come up. So I think that this is certainly something we will try to make sure it gets amplified in the report.
And I think also there's been the HP the heterogeneity and the constantly evolving nature of HPC has also been an important point that.
Clearly, we need to think about as a community.
Guess I can go ahead.
Once computational frontier it seems like we're more limited by the human efficiency in the convenience of doing the analyses. And you know, sharing the data, some projects use millions of CPU hours but we're not limited by raw computing power in the
way that some other areas are, but the computing centers are driving towards things like, you know, GPUs or beyond that are driven by raw computing power and it's actually, you know, less convenient in some ways.
And so making sure that the human efficiency for doing the analysis doesn't get lost in the wall computing power.
I will say that's almost an understatement Steven, this
really are getting more barbaric over time to program and certainly true and I think for core to that are not using a huge amount of computing power is simply not efficient to force people to use the most efficient computing hardware if it's costing a
lot of manpower to do so. That's my certainly my view.
David has his hand up.
Yeah, I was just gonna say hello, Steven was saying so.
Yeah, I was just gonna fill out, Stephen was just saying so. Um, so for our projects we've been lucky enough to get these nice fellows who very nicely fit the bill of having the you know the computing knowledge actually poured onto these new platforms.
Um, we've been able to relatively quickly and some projects have benefited from that others have not.
But that one could see building out from something like that to, to help, you know, more of us, basically.
Maybe here is my third concerned that I didn't bring up earlier which is recruiting.
We've had the needs of fellow for a year and an open ad for the following two years and you know recruiting in these people that have physics and computing expertise is extremely complicated, and maybe I have a skewed version of it because I live in the
Bay Area so we have a lot of competition from industry but recruiting and retention are extremely challenging for us right now.
So, I can bring up one theme that's very closely related to both things that Maria Elena just said. So one concerning chaos, is that for the very low threshold Dark Matter searches so I think what people are finding with that, Jr.
data to tune the simulations for very low energy interactions with people or one electron volts or so. And so people are going out and making these measurements now but if there's no formal Monte Carlo program, plug them into then that just means the
Wild West everybody has their own homebrew Monte Carlo. And then this then connects to the other issue that that was brought up how difficult it is to hire somebody who knows both physics and computing and as we know in the US were kind of in this huge
gold rush for quantum computing, and it's very very difficult to hire people in quantum computing as well, because there's so much competition from industry.
But one of the issues that has come up in that field is they've noticed that all these low energy backgrounds that would affect the low threshold Dark Matter searches are also affecting the quantum computers, and so it seems like they also need the particle
physics input to understand like how, not only the you know how the high energy cosmic rays will screw up a silicon based side computer that by using the low energy stuff let's go up the quantum computers and so perhaps that's an area of synergy with
strategic interest that could be leveraged to convince to you to put more funding into things like Jay Ott targeting the lower energy interactions.
develop and improve the software like making it faster but but also to improve the physics, which is you know that that that's kind of a sort of slightly different skill set, but still a central and even better if we can find someone who has both skills
but it's pretty Atlanta said that's becoming increasingly difficult.
Yeah, but then you tie it into quantum right now that's getting a lot of publicity and so a lot of young people are interested in that, and that could be the thing that gets people excited about joining this field.
Dan Baxter. Yeah, I was just going to say this is a good opportunity for collaboration with cosmic frontier since we have one of the white papers that Jody mentioned is on calibration down to lower energies below where the current simulation software
is so that that relates to both what Aaron's saying and what you're saying about how we can, we need the physics and and and there are broader implications as well.
So, unfortunately I have to leave.
Yeah, we only budgeted 15 minutes It was just meant to be a starting conversation, and by all means that you can continue.
And, but I do, I do hope that we can follow up with some the possibility of no longer sending meetings, if, if that would be helpful.
can just be calling from context to that for the theoretical simulation side with a less engagement.
Then we would like and relate to make sure that we have greater visibility of what's coming.
So please feel free to reach out.
Alright, so I think that was a really good first discussion or hopefully when it's ready.
I will continue.
Reaching out to each other until the other frontiers.
So I guess for the computing folks.
Maybe I'll for your questions into the broader this and then ask them to get in touch with you if they have other answers.
Thank you.
It's been a good discussion.
Okay, great. So I think that is the end of our breakout session for this afternoon at least a formal schedule and it's getting late especially for the people on the east coast.