10:05:27 for being here for for working group but that would be too many.
10:05:46 Please do not expect surprises safe on introductory slide but there are some pieces of information that we would like to really stress, and just make sure that they're always available.
10:05:41 So here's the quick summary of the timeline which is getting squeezed the more and more. So the major milestone for us is that before they take our topic I don't like both that is the deadline to submit papers and she's in March, 15 next year.
10:05:58 However, we would really like to receive notifications about essential results are way or have they have been better.
10:06:05 Generally would mean essentially seven eight weeks from now so that we can include them out.
10:06:12 organically in the topic I give a report.
10:06:22 After the win this inclusion after January, we live, the preparation and review of top.
10:06:38 Reporter within, within everything we work at talk about that the final energy from ti reporter, which is a, which scheduled to come out in July and define us Don't ask me for that should be around October of next year, or whether first time F of these
10:06:45 says live from the presentation. May JWJ normally we would really like to have an idea of what to expect the to every March.
10:06:55 We have a draft of our reporter he has a link is a Google document.
10:07:12 We like the fee if you could, to take a look at it and let us let us know if there is anything you wish to add to the list of key questions that we have, or other sections of that document, such as a game is where we both expected result that these leads
10:07:18 leads that to what the second time again, my main question, please let us know as soon as possible. The details of your plan for the contributions, the expected output from your film a letter of intent or expected results even if there is no letter of
10:07:34 intent. The format of the results that Julian very important to coordinate combinations in the timeline, we're really getting close to the, to the deadline.
10:07:46 A piece of news from a couple of weeks ago nothing major. In the meanwhile, there's a new proposal from the, from the luminosity scenarios a new tab so the plan now is to use.
10:07:59 They have limited 10 invest set to band for me and dollar points about 10 TV, while before there were discussions about going up to 30. There are some preliminary studies that show that the fact that he's should be not dramatic about this needs to be
10:08:15 confirmed that there is a link to this lies that presented the food plan for the time enough these slides are only a few more weeks in 2021, so please let us know state there's no expectations are for your life that will be invented, so that we can organize
10:08:31 organize that both a year for for in the energy from to. Reports.
10:08:38 And my last slide.
10:08:41 I'm learning to get faster and faster.
10:08:43 A, as usual, communications, slack madingley stir. He has a link to our page within the colleague meetings, and the link and instructions on how to add them to your favorite calendar application.
10:08:59 Now Dr B, all the year for for meetings recordings are now password protected. I think is my, add the the login credentials in the chat area. If you miss it up, and you're looking at these slides offline, please let us know and we will, we will pass them
10:09:16 around our weekly bi weekly now on Fridays at 10am EDT next meeting is in November again it was not the change of zoom meeting the rumor. So, we move the for the last two meetings on to a Peter bitsberger, Homer.
10:09:37 And last but, again for the fourth time. Please contact us if you have not recently presented a state to serve blends of your fellow eyes so that we can share you in appearance at the fo for meetings and get a more complete picture of what what we expect
10:09:53 them in January.
10:09:56 Thank you very much.
10:09:59 And we have questions.
10:10:10 Okay.
10:10:11 Hi.
10:10:14 So, looking into this document that you have.
10:10:18 And I see that there are some sections mentioned from topics, and they are covering from some contributions from FCC.
10:10:28 So, we are also planning to submit a document on topics from Dell to. Would you like to include some sections on this in this report, or would you just link it to the white paper.
10:10:52 It depends a little bit what the scope of your study Yes, so the FCC studies would be about how physics on the z power, and you know they're different aspects to it.
10:10:54 One of them is for them to simply figure out how well they can measure Charles, which is interesting for its own sake, but actually not so, you know, particular for our goal.
10:11:07 The other aspect of causes that this translates into ways how one could measure certain elect weak position observer bonds to, you know, zebra towel towel.
10:11:20 That does interesting firewall. So if at Bell, you would also have a situation that you can measure certain electroweak physics two towers, we would be interested in that.
10:11:46 Well, as presenting the polarization aspect of it in today's meeting.
10:11:39 That will certainly cover. For example measurement of scientific W, and forward backward as symmetries that would surely be relevant. But in general, there is a full program for topics to measure branching fractions, we us, and EDM MDM and so forth.
10:12:00 So, we are trying to contribute to a white paper that will summarize all of them that I think would rather go in the India cluster seas and however the long name this frontier.
10:12:20 Slowly.
10:12:21 You know which one I mean sorry, I forgot the name of our policies and position for you, rather than the energy frontier, I. That's my understanding, at least you can certainly keep us in the loop about that white paper but i think you know the the main
10:12:36 people to to accept and, and process such a white page of submission would be dead funkier.
10:12:44 As long as it is somewhere that's fine. Yeah.
10:12:46 Yeah. And, you know, I mean, if, if you have trouble making connections we can always you know help with that, you know, when I was in
10:12:59 was in the contract and discussion with the rear frontier, but from what I understood that they were looking to have a separate section on the NFP aspect of physics from bell to, but not all the general aspect of topics.
10:13:21 So, that is why I raised this point because I discuss with them and they definitely wanted a contribution, but contribution that was focused only towards me measurement.
10:13:34 They were unsure on how to put in other aspects like, as I mentioned, we us and Michelle parameter measurements from top.
10:13:45 So, I did not see a piece, the place to put them in in the RF frontier.
10:13:54 Although, I could be mistaken.
10:13:57 Yeah, I mean, let's be in touch about it we can we can talk to some of our other, you know, colleagues and other topical groups in the energy frontier if there, you know, there may be some interest in ckm matrix implemented terminations I don't know exactly,
10:14:13 don't.
10:14:15 In principle, you know, Snowmass should be a community driven f5 right so so if you are working on this.
10:14:24 Some convenience should pay attention to this right, they should not say all day, you know, I don't care. So, we can certainly try to help you know facilitating that conversation with our policies frontier and you know make make sure you know that you
10:14:43 find a place somewhere.
10:14:45 Ok.
10:14:48 I'll email you and get into yeah just, uh, just send an email or maybe you know for what you know us what you have from them or something like that and we go from there.
10:14:57 Sure.
10:14:58 Thanks.
10:15:01 You know completely agree with, with the data some aspects that are directly relevant for the year for for that. And if there is a there is a need, we will help to mediate to make sure that the cooler.
10:15:14 The others going in the right, the right to topical.
10:15:22 Okay, let me stop sharing here.
10:15:26 So we can probably stop it.
10:15:31 So let us. Shall we move on to our first contribution.
10:15:36 Richard Can you share. Perfect.
10:15:42 And please go ahead now.
10:15:46 Please go ahead now. As you probably unmute myself first.
10:15:50 You guys can hear me all right.
10:15:52 Yeah.
10:15:53 Okay.
10:15:54 Thank you for the, the introduction, I'm very, very pleased particularly today, to be able to show some results and give an update a little bit of a definitive update, because we've been working on something for two years and what have you seen the archive
10:16:09 already you kind of have an idea, right so week goes on scans from week goes on PDFs.
10:16:15 This is a speaking can it's.
10:16:20 There you go. So the big lLoY question that my co signers and I have all put together is really put it simply, in one line and one question, how does the electronic theory behave at very high energies and very high momentum transfers you were talking
10:16:37 about new inclusion neon colliders 100 TV colliders, you know, just, you know, super, super energetic scales, such that the momentum transfer the typical momentum transfer is much much larger than the Wi Fi mass, because in that case you actually start
10:16:57 to a funny region. Engage theory because, you know, spontaneously broken gates theory, looks like a mess escapes theory, the question is well how do you do this mapping, how do you actually treat these things because you start asking interesting questions
10:17:11 and feel theory, but also, you know, this is how, you know, universe works at the end of the day, so there are way many ways to explore this for example, you wouldn't been looking at electric part time showers actually PDFs.
10:17:24 And you know a summary since a of the output since the height is is that there's been a lot of cool work in the past year.
10:17:32 There are many things that are not citing because that is older than a year but you know from the past year you have a Bose on scattering and fusion of future colliders is nice little review that we try to deliver for Snowmass and it came out in June,
10:17:47 their electric goes on PDFs, tell Han and the game in Pittsburgh have been really really pushing on this.
10:17:54 Other people such as a Christian Baron Berkeley Brian Weber and you spend our company the bolts have been working on this but they're not a co signer of the letter intent was also the work is a year or two older.
10:18:07 Um, there's also been recent we're going to actually Partridge hours by Rob.
10:18:12 One of the things I find interesting is a correlations and interference unfortunate showers a stubborn presto put out recent work and also Rob again put our recent work and of course meal and clever physics.
10:18:24 All this is just been a hot topic the past year and two years at this point. And it's really cool to see so many papers appearing on the archive. And there are so many I'm just not going to cite any of them.
10:18:37 Okay, so I you know I got invited to give an update concerning that I was invited to get with the update last year, and then I thought, well let's just see what I said last year because Well that was a year ago turns out it wasn't exactly a year ago is
10:18:52 November six. So actually just don't my slide with minor modifications because the idea that, at that point, a year ago, we were hoping to do you know pillars matrix elements with Matt Graham so you know you you have a matrix element, and your your part,
10:19:07 your external part John's are in a definite holistic polarized state, and being able to go through the technicalities and automate that. So that was done.
10:19:16 And then, you know, in a parallel track, you know we've been working on electronic record goes on scattering and will play TV collisions. And this is where this tagline that a multi TV London collectors are effectively highly Ignacio electroweak bows
10:19:29 and collectors, just the cool result there is that you really juicy that vector Brazil and scattering is exceeding as channel annihilation. because of the log enhancements.
10:19:42 Um, and, you know, in the past year, you know, the grand vision that master plan we had was actually to combine these two, because if you combine these two, you can start talking about Wz PDFs, because if you have Wz PDFs, these are polarized Debian Z's
10:19:57 one polarized Milan's in order to actually implement this you need to match these two mix matrix elements in which the external partners are polarized method, you know there's a despite our madness we, we had something in the back of our mind.
10:20:12 And as of today in the archive, I'm happy to say that we, we have the results and they're all officially public and things will be available in matter graph in a week or two, I mean, we're just at this point just merging a couple different branches together.
10:20:27 From a bit for being charming profiles for electron colliders for the FCC so all of this is coming together and should be officially released in a week or so but you can download development versions today.
10:20:40 Um, and so just to kind of, you know, show some cool results is, what does the effect of vegetables on approximation look like in high energy beyond climate collisions.
10:20:51 Um, and I kind of want to explain what this is. So, be effective. So Sally Dawson.
10:21:00 Back in, 85 wrote the effective w approximation which is describing a new state, get these disease. So we took that we took the right structure wounds approximation which is for photons from pythons put this together into the vector of effective vegetables
10:21:13 and approximation, given that you can construct these are these are contribution functions, you can actually write a factorization theorem formula collisions.
10:21:25 And so it's a you know a PDF PDFs being involved with the heart scattering major talent, up to para para la and lugger in the corrections on the language that we're using is intentionally suggested know we're trying to really emphasize the parallels with
10:21:43 the performative QC and really just, you know, things are becoming clear in that sense in that organization at least for me. And so what would it what are what did we implement in mad graph.
10:21:54 so we we use derived read derived these uh these PDFs at leading order, you know, we have the heart scattering matrix element we're doing the Face Face integrals.
10:22:05 And so you can get fully differential events, or polarized electronic books on scattering to any final state at lowest order. So I got asked this question.
10:22:33 W, the initial state part on a new state Wz is parked on our massive photon of courses vessels on f can be anything in practice five six legs because then it just matter if it's just hard chromatograph, the PDFs are bare leading order PDFs, you know akin
10:22:35 to what you can find the best can be shorter for the photon.
10:22:39 There's no RG evolution in our expression in what we've done now but this is just a first step, and we'll we'll see how far we can get with this in the future.
10:22:49 Um, so just to show a little more advertising, you know what exactly did we do you know, here are the PDFs themselves so these are polarized Wz from polarized leptons from yawns and so you just that's you see the larger logarithmic structure in the transverse
10:23:05 case, and the absence, in the, in the lunch you know case.
10:23:11 As I said, we added photon PDFs or four, which is the second Williams.
10:23:15 To be clear, we also kept the so called improved by checker Williams by Mangano and fix your name so just a publicity show that you know this stuff is actually in the code.
10:23:27 And given the fact that we're able to do the exact matrix elements.
10:23:32 Despite their little hard to do because you're going into such extremes corner face spaces but doing the full vector bows on scatter calculation and comparing this to individual channels with polarized using the vector, Victor, both an approximation,
10:24:03 actually able to compare the full matrix elements to the WA on and we kind of found some really cool conclusive results, namely you know I want to draw your attention to the left figure here and this lower curve. So here, I'm showing the full matrix Helmand
10:24:05 for two new ones come in to Higgs is and two neutrinos come out some practice ww scattering to die hits on the, the dash line is the effective w approximation, but only the longitudinal polarization.
10:24:21 We ran the numbers, and this process is driven at the 99 98% level by wants you to scatter in the transverse contribution is negligible. So we're able to do a near apples and apples comparison of lunch to know ww scattering with the who are the four major
10:24:39 talent. And you see that there's a this dis and I'm sure the differential cross section is a function of the very mess of the dynamic system, or alternatively of the WWE system.
10:24:50 And so you see that there's this disagreement for in di headmaster's below a TV, but relatively good agreement for larger masses.
10:25:00 This is totally non trivial and just to jump to the, to the point. One of the key things that we found out was that this disagreement here really is due to the fact that the Wz or in this case the W.
10:25:14 Have a mouse that's large. So what we did was that we completely just Jerry rigged things and decrease the standard model of them by a factor of 10.
10:25:34 We kept all the couplings in the Thompson limit, same so in practice the Wz masses got reduced by a factor of 10.
10:25:33 And that's what you see in the the this upper curve. So this is the standard model but with the whole you know the entire center model but with the web divided by a factor of 10, and you see that this disappearance, goes that this disagreement disappears.
10:25:46 And the only thing that's changed was rescaling of that. And so, you know we we really are able to see that this disagreement that we see in comparing the four matrix element with the effects of W approximation are power corrections associated with the
10:26:02 finite wX.
10:26:05 And so that was rather start that we just saw that it was, well, it started and we were kind of a puzzle about this but then we started looking more detailed into things like heavy cork factorization or the early onset of a dis at a couple gv, and while
10:26:23 it really just turns out that this is what it is you know, in QCD know once the bottom Korkmaz is much much smaller you know on the order of a 1% at the squared level, you can treat things with PDFs, and on the right, just to show that you can also do
10:26:38 things that the similar story holds for the transverse case. So, and the rides just to say that we did a leptons to three photons plus neutrinos using the four matrix element, which is the solid line and the NWA but since we have transverse kW is you
10:26:57 know you have this a factorization scale, there's an ambiguity. So we did a new office square root of x and square root of so forth so that's the uncertainty back.
10:27:06 And you see that, you know, in the Standard Model case at around 750 gb there abouts, you know, that's when you fall into the uncertainty bad.
10:27:14 If you again, just shrink your shrink the the standard model that reduce the Standard Model bad by a factor of 10, all of a sudden things are much more better agreement on the difference between the lunch and learn the trends versus actually can be a
10:27:27 with the sub power corrections when you derive the WZPS read the paper for details. Um, yeah and so this is kind of just an advertisement, you know, knowing than that we need an invariant mass above a TV or so if the who else is on the order of 100 gV.
10:27:46 Then we have confidence of better confidence and that the effective w approximation is working. So then we just decided to have fun and looking to all kinds of process, di Higgs try Hades for Higgs is for all polarization but also to know scattering top
10:28:05 top court and associated top court production from all polarization. She knows scattering and you just see the absence of skill uncertainties there.
10:28:16 And that's that's an artifact that's just because there's no new left there. And so that's why there there's no uncertainties. Um, you tried bows on production for all polarization or transfer is transverse EC nice little hierarchies.
10:28:29 It's kind of fun doing all these don't do made all the parts so he did a great job and making all of these plots.
10:28:36 We also just made all kinds of tables so this is diverse on production for example, and you see the rates you see the larger uncertainties, you just even gave the Mad graph syntax command so that you came into this yourself out of the box on.
10:28:53 So, and that brings me to the sort of conclusions for this update. So, the question that's been explored by the ally, and the CO signers of the Li is asking, how does the electronic theory behave at super high energies and at least for our side of this.
10:29:10 You know, we looked into pullers matrix elements and polarized vegetables on scattering.
10:29:16 We've looked at vegetables and scatter neon colliders, and now we brought this two together with the Wz PDFs, and we're seeing a clearer picture of when get busy PDFs, are valid.
10:29:31 And it's kind of cool to be able to make statements like that be the Pulitzer telling.
10:29:35 We spent a lot of time, which is why it took a while to to get this out, but it's available today on the archive and it should be available to download in the next week or so.
10:29:46 All right. Thank you.
10:29:50 Thank you very much. We should be interesting, and timely.
10:29:55 I see a question from is that please.
10:29:59 Yeah, sure. Yeah, thanks for chip. I mean, So, I understand that basically you know you're studying how to properly, you know, simulate and predict elect weeks done on modern philosophy said to me on Collider.
10:30:14 But if one looks at it in terms of like the bigger physics goal is of course I guess the idea of many of these processes would be to test things like a novel escaped posts on couplings or number six couplings.
10:30:25 So do you have any sense or some plan to evaluate what would be the impact of those things on on those physics codes in particular your short you know they're pretty large uncertainty so I guess you know that would limit the possibility to test these
10:30:40 anomalous cufflinks
10:30:43 ours. That's an excellent question. I think it's important question.
10:30:47 And so therefore you know I'm going to say it but.
10:31:03 So, A, independent, the.
10:31:05 This word on Daniela Fabio and Luke, have been looking into that sort of thing about the sensitivity to eat cheese a sensitivity to anonymous gauge couplings
10:31:21 on my side and what Olivier myself, have been asking is understanding the much more fun. I don't want to say much more fundamental, we're we're trying to ask the question of what does the gauge theory, itself, look like so we're looking instead of a phenomenal,
10:31:44 phenomenal logical application, which is totally, totally important, don't get me wrong it's absolutely important.
10:31:51 What I have been trying to focus on and what a Olivia along the lines of tau on on is trying to understand from the theoretical point of perspective of,
10:32:04 you know, how, how does factorization itself work in a massive gauge theory in a spontaneous unbroken gauge theory, which that itself, I think, is a worthwhile question because you know we're we're talking about, you know, even if a new is a new collider
10:32:24 was constructed, you know, in the best case scenario and you can collider was constructed. There's a question about whether or not the tools we have from the galaxy.
10:32:41 tv collider or 32 Vimeo uncluttered. So from that perspective. I personally don't have the numbers, because I'm asking. I'm we're trying, at least, my side of the letter of intent is trying to focus on questions of the factorization term itself, you know
10:32:56 this this sort of a, you know, this sort of suggested expression and understanding. When we do search simulations at a future Collider.
10:33:05 What are these uncertainties and how can we get these under control. Now Yeah, no, I do understand and I know this is all pretty much work in progress, you know, so, so if there is no good answer at this point then there isn't.
10:33:17 You know, I was just curious, you know if from the work you do, or are doing.
10:33:23 If there's any way to say that, okay you know you found already obviously that you know LHC towards don't work out of the box for the beyond Collider.
10:33:32 There are some improvements that are already been made, but these improvements are probably not sufficient yet. So do we have you know some sense of what more do the work that needs to be done to be the physics codes, but maybe it's too early to say,
10:33:45 Yeah, no, I can see very briefly, two things very briefly, and it has to the logarithm corrections. One is I, replacing these leading order bear PDFs with the RG improve PDFs and I believe you and I both know people who have studied that recently.
10:34:03 So, we can chat about that more next week.
10:34:06 The other is a partner in shower, and for literally those lines and now that this infant now that mad. the Mad graph infrastructure is there. We future proof this for support for the the prospect of supporting eventually portrait showers that do the matching
10:34:26 and do the RG balancing, you know, support for de gloppy walls with PDFs, and really drop those skill uncertainties. So that's Next on the agenda, whether or not we can do this before, large know.
10:34:42 But that's no, that's fine. You obviously don't have to do you know to emerge to be ready to do. We are collider analyses.
10:34:51 It was 30 years or so if any such machine will be bit, I just, you know, just to summarize and say okay you know this is what you foresee needs to be done.
10:34:59 That's useful information to be included in the snow monster.
10:35:04 Yeah, it looks promising and there's I think a clear roadmap down.
10:35:09 There's a roadmap.
10:35:12 We are looking forward to seeing the roadmap.
10:35:22 Thank you very much.
10:35:25 We have more questions for each other.
10:35:32 And I don't see raise their hands. So thank you again, these very very nice, very nice presentation.
10:35:44 Really interesting results. So let me, let me then invite forgotten to share.
10:35:52 I put the slides on the indigo, but Mike will give the presentation. So, Mike, can you please share your screen and, please.
10:36:03 Okay, so we're going to discuss this legacy preferred I get this presentation this time.
10:36:16 See how it goes full screen, see if it works.
10:36:25 I did see it.
10:36:28 Yeah, I'm trying to do, big screen here Just a minute.
10:36:41 Whoops.
10:36:35 Okay.
10:36:39 Okay, I started as an issue here.
10:36:54 Can you hear me all right.
10:36:56 Yeah, so we can let me try this again.
10:37:11 I won't try to go full screen this time so you'll see some of them.
10:37:20 Okay, well maybe it's okay.
10:37:23 Okay.
10:37:25 And let me just try and make sure it moves back and forth is it gonna move.
10:37:28 Yep. Okay. Okay so, Yeah, thanks. I'll just go through this update it's, we look back to what we present we present presented very little the last time so basically the idea with a,
10:37:47 with, with an upgraded super Capri with polarized beings, we have a huge new opportunities probe electronic physics, with precision. So you can see in this presentation that you can also prompt Dark Sector, but it also provides other tools for for studying
10:38:06 the properties of the towel. Some of these sorbitol mentioned. And there's also some hydraulic stuff, you can actually study as well but the focus today would be on the, on the electroweak in the towel.
10:38:18 Towel stuff.
10:38:19 So just to remind you this super good Bs, you know, plus or minus collateral, 10.5 VGV, and provides roughly 10 times, or 40 times the luminosity of the previous generation, the factories.
10:38:36 Right now, so it looks here and Bill two is located here. And the idea is to upgrade it with with polarization. So it does not have polarization in the base program.
10:38:48 The intent here is to measure left brain cemeteries with high precision. And because you're at the excellent for us, you have access to beauty charm town the electron as well as the light corks, but you can actually then extract science great data W.
10:39:04 For all of these independently and it's probably knows the only place you can do this precisely very precisely until you have something like a Giga see factory.
10:39:13 So, for calling it Cairo Bell because measuring the left radio symmetry is just to remind you, so the measured science with data.
10:39:23 Effective to this kind of precision.
10:39:26 And at 10.58 gb we of course are using the data set under ference so born channel diagram looks like that. And it's sensitive to the actual electric coupling of the initial state times the vector Cup final the final state for focusing on these final state
10:39:43 state differences, it does depend on the polarization so you do have to know the polarization precisely. So, some of the measure the polarization you basically are the result of a polarization just like it so the you use a laser on a photo cathode with
10:40:03 laser polarization flipping back and forth. And so experimentally This is quite nice because you get rid of some of the the randomness that you, as you make use of the randomness to get rid of systematic effects, but you do have to measure that that polarization
10:40:18 that are nominally right handed nominally left handed and we have the ability to do this with with precision measurements in bell to I'll talk about that but it's basically using tau, tau parents at the interaction point, though the calculation with Danilo
10:40:35 corrections for new pair events was, was published and, and, you know, we can you try later. But as you know, there's this tension from leptin as on the days that the highest precision measurements the SLT which was basically the probing and what the
10:40:53 electron and AFB from lab push scrubbing with the beak work as more than three sigma difference now to time it okay well, you get three sigma effects, but now with with Carol Bell we actually have the ability to probe that in a single experiment, and
10:41:08 with higher precision then was available at the pool.
10:41:14 You know this is not going away right and in fact this. This is from 2019. You know if you just spoke for some reason you just focus on the, the core thing, it's a two and a half discrepancy from the, from the Standard Model prediction.
10:41:29 So, some work as I mentioned this this paper and think that this was published in 2020. Okay, and this is the LR for E plus minus two new, and the line, This is what next leading order calculations, the points are actually with the Monte Carlo simulation
10:41:50 K can see from Cracow that has the ability to polarize the beings. You can see there's very good agreement. So we can actually pass this through our car detector simulations we haven't done that yet for the for the new parents but we have generated them.
10:42:07 And, and shown that this is, this is what you get. So there's quite good consistency.
10:42:13 A another calculation that was published in 2020.
10:42:18 These are not these points are just from the, from the calculation that visit showing what happens when you have Bob and so with the electron pair final states, and this is a I guess a new development.
10:42:29 You know, we find that the you know the channel is is has to be obviously taken that the teacher has to be taken into account with the channel, and in fact the sign of the asymmetry flips.
10:42:43 So, new pairs your negative here for electrons your positive, some of the recent work was that a new generator called the renaissance of, dude.
10:42:57 They were actually producing the spore IOC primarily but we got in contact with them in contact with them and they were, they were the new generator was capable of producing bottles with the polarization.
10:43:10 And so we got in contact with him and started working with them and have them bring in a single game polarization which is what we're talking about doing we're only going to be polarizing, the electron beam and super catchy.
10:43:23 And then you can actually compare the results with that.
10:43:26 I just showed.
10:43:27 So this is the Al for electrons.
10:43:32 This is the angle of acceptance of that means that x is is the direction of the electron beam in Belton.
10:43:41 And this is showing the detector acceptance that we would have. So, as a function of this angle, you can see that the color changes, and these are the two comparisons of these two calculations.
10:43:55 And so you can see that you know you have a reasonable measurement of very much reasonable value for the, the left right a symmetry.
10:44:04 Within the acceptance of the detector. So you can also use these variations within Renaissance and the calculations to find the sensitivity with science where data who is left ready symmetry measurement.
10:44:19 Now, another development, over the last year, is that the bell to collaboration has published. I paper on E plus c minus b plus c minus. So we actually know what Bill to can actually do in terms of measuring electron pair file states, so it would can
10:44:46 do it with an efficiency, 36% of that cross section of 17.4 nano binds within the acceptance that was being studied and the within that Angular acceptance, this is Sarah was shown with the left radio symmetry would be so if you just took that existing
10:44:53 This is the Sarah was shown with the left raise symmetry would be so if you just took that existing belt to analysis. And if you had polarization and super Kp and you apply that this is what you would see in terms of your left right center so this was
10:45:05 a major development, both theoretically and from the experimental side coming together with the electron studies.
10:45:11 Just to summarize, we have 70%, if we assume 70% polarized being at the interaction point, then you really do get on precedent position for neutral, correct vector couplings.
10:45:23 So what is shown here is the standard model left radius symmetry, as statistical error, plus a 8.5% systematic error on the knowledge of the beam polarization number I mentioned, you have to know that polarization.
10:45:39 So for the bees for your summer selection efficiency of point three and seek works and point three.
10:45:45 These studies, people are now studying this.
10:45:49 So before we actually do give a final report to Snowmass we'll have some more solid numbers on what these efficiencies would be the towels we we pretty sure we can get point two five just based on previously published Tao analyses and in the barn bell.
10:46:14 And this electron studies now based on an actual bill to publication of this past year, and the, the, the new calculations.
10:46:24 From from Duda and, and actually from new format.
10:46:29 So, just to let you know, again this is the world average transcript data w measurement.
10:46:46 So what is it what kind of improvements Do you expect well with the beak work, expect an improvement of a factor of four with 20% of lines of data. Expect to improve a factor of four in the vector coupling constant of the beat the Sikh works in a factor
10:46:53 of seven.
10:46:55 Okay, so this is, you know, with this, just adding polarization to if you had to do this just with statistics would be very very difficult but in fact it's this now is to see if you increase the luminosity and doubling it, you're not really improving
10:47:09 anything because you're already hit a systematic limit on the knowledge of the, of the being polarization with the courts. See course, you can get a little bit more improvement, but it's not even showing here in the digit.
10:47:21 For you, you basically have an uncertainty, it's similar we had before, but with more data you can improve that. We want to improve by a factor of three, and electronics again, it's not, it's not you know you basically are are looking at the world average
10:47:37 when you're actually doing the electronic but of course you're at a at a different center mass energy, but if you combine the leptons you're going to have roughly a on science where data W, an error on the world average science where David W is comparable
10:47:52 to the fact that the existing world average but at 10.5 HEV.
10:47:59 Okay, so what can you do that we have this precision pro by the running of the week mixing angle and when you're away from the pole.
10:48:08 And the pole dominates everything so soon as you move away from a hole you're sensitive to any kind of new physics.
10:48:14 And the other thing that you have for the first time is this precision test, the neutral current vector coupling universality for B's and C's. So right now the world if you if you took the vector company will be to seek works.
10:48:30 You're getting more than a factor of 10 improvement in that uncertainty.
10:48:35 So this is probing things like if you do a quote just scale us to tell if you had a debt statistically you need 100 times your data sample to do that.
10:48:42 So this is a new technique that that gets you that kind of improved precision, it will give you the most precise measurements for your time and beauty by many factors.
10:48:52 And with this, running down here. You know, you actually can be sensitive to the prime about the TV scale and. And also, if it only couples to leptons, this is a place to look for it from number it is complimentary to anything Sunday he was going to both
10:49:07 corks and laptops in the physics report from the lab experiments and sob these plots were given a vector coupling versus the actual electric coupling for see quarks and be cork so what's shown here, this point is the central value of the world average.
10:49:24 And these ellipses and the one standard deviation ellipse, of the measurement of the world average, two standard deviation three standard deviation.
10:49:33 And what's shown here is what you can get from polarization in Super tech be. This is a plus and minus one sigma. So you're comparing this to basically this.
10:49:47 And that's where you get the seven times precision improvement with be quarks. Okay, again, they, as you know, the Standard Model point is all you have to mark the Standard Model point so the Seahawks are consistent with Dynamo be as you can see that
10:49:58 it's a little bit outside the two and a half sigma deviation.
10:50:03 The central value measured by the world average from the standard model.
10:50:07 And again, this would be the world average uncertainty on the vector Conklin constant. And with Carol Bell, get an improvement of factor of four and that certainly is with 20 and Rosado Barnes with the monotony.
10:50:21 So, it you know it's also uniquely sensitive to the Dark Sector. So it's this is a paper that was published in 2015 so it was overlay this and and see what we get.
10:50:30 So if you go to the, you know, the authors actually produced a number of plots.
10:50:46 With the dark side of 15 GV 25 gb. So this is a of the you know the kinematic, you would not you cannot produce a peak, with this in the bell to data, and it's very difficult to produce peak even in was LHC data with these low masses, but this this dark
10:50:57 eggs exists and has parody violating properties, just shows where the kind of deviations you can expect within their model so they're exploring. So the, the dark curve is within this epsilon delta prime range.
10:51:14 And if it's above point eight and this this light color. So we're talking about a precision measurement, right here, that would be sensitive to this is dark said, as you know, global interest everywhere The, the mother experiment, which is at 100 and
10:51:32 maybe we'll have a similar precision a little bit larger. But of course it's only sensitive electron couplings so that that's a very interesting complimentary measurements, the IC and principal can measure science group data w in similar kinematic regions
10:51:47 with less precision is also constrained with what it can do is say, you know, electron off of works, but the precision is much was about 10 times what we're talking about here.
10:52:00 And of course we have the next generation. So, what it also provides I mentioned this is that the Thomas show parameters the electric dipole moment of the town and information on the magnetic form factor.
10:52:13 So there's a series of presentations that were given and and one recently on the, what you can do with the Michelle parameters that was given at the top 21 conference.
10:52:24 It can also be used to reduce backgrounds and tell them you gamma and lead to improve sensitivities, and also the polarization if you see something polarization can help you distinguish kind of know physics you've got.
10:52:38 But just to quickly run through this paper. This is an older paper but it's talking about what you could do with polarized beings and we factory.
10:52:48 So just quickly go through it, you know that remind you that if two at zero is the anomalous magnetic moment f3 gives you that electric dipole moment and burn our company was showing that was it.
10:53:04 Being polarization of lambda, that this normalization vector of sensitivity to the real part of the know basically to the EDM.
10:53:15 They are also creating the variables that is showing this so, so I'll just cut to the chase because it's actually been done before, but the.
10:53:25 If you use the numbers that they had published and you say we have 40 English outlines of kettlebell data with 70% polarization and you can get the power EDM to roughly 10 to the minus 20.
10:53:38 This is the statistical error only currently if you just did this with Bell data or bell to data so bell has recently published this was on polarized data so if you just said okay we're not going to polarize The, the trooper kept being we're just gonna
10:53:51 have to use the belt to data within polarized maybe we're expecting a 15% of minds rebel to buy around 20 2020 2031. And this is the kind of precision you're expecting so you get a substantial improvement and precision by injuries and that polarization.
10:54:07 For the magnetic form factor, we create an X a transverse a symmetry and a longitudinal asymmetry and what's the combination of those asymmetries.
10:54:20 They produce this table here and this is ones with the polarization.
10:54:24 So, using this study, you can actually get the f2 at 10.5 GV have to tend to the minus six.
10:54:37 This is just statistically or only but the nice thing about polarization is systematic errors typically are under control.
10:54:45 So I mean, you know, this is something this is probably the only way you can actually access, a town.
10:54:51 New on form factor, the f2, with any kind of precision.
10:55:01 Turbo magnetic form factor with any kind of precision. The show parameters and this was presented here and the support you can get per roll
10:55:13 eight of these the red points here and see MC delta. So, it really is going to be is precision method of getting Michelle parameters from towels and again you would look for universality effects with new ones.
10:55:30 So, I already mentioned this, I don't think, to go through that again, can you know what, let me just summarize, although the hardware. Yeah, so we do you guys aren't interested in hardware but this is a reality for us.
10:55:42 So a lot of the work has also been going into new hardware in particular the biggest challenge is the spin rotator so you can know how to produce the polarized sources.
10:55:52 But once they get into the ring, you need to you know there. You want them to be polarized up or down and then you have to rotate them near the IP so you have the beam comes around here you then rotate them.
10:56:07 And the trick here is to do this without interfering with the luminosity because these values that I've been getting assume that you've got to luminosity that don't don't have any correlation.
10:56:17 So they spend rotator models that we've been looking at supposed to be transparent to the fact that they're there, and we've been having quite a bit of success in developing those so that's going to be part of the Snowmass right, not necessarily of interest
10:56:30 to the fo for because you're not dealing with the technical part, but it wasn't it's an important thing to prove it yeah can you can actually do this.
10:56:45 So, just two people in France, are working on, and actually in Manitoba working on that can pull the perimeter, as well.
10:56:46 So this could be monitoring along to know polarization letter better than half percent absolute precision.
10:56:53 But once you calibrate with towels and I mentioned you can use data case from by studying the kinematic the case of the towels, can be measured in belt who, and then you get the absolute precision measurement of the polarization at the interaction point.
10:57:09 So this is just showing you that, again, KKMC study Monte Carlo study that was showing us. Now, in fact, bar papers in the works that is going to show what it can be accomplished within an actual experiment, and how you can actually study the systematics
10:57:25 and it's looking like we're going to hopefully be publishing this within a few number of months ago, a few months, but it actually is quite encouraging, so again you see this is again a unique situation.
10:57:56 Most polarization measurements you don't have access at the IP so you have to mention able to comfortable there and then translate that information with the towel pair method, you actually are measuring the polarization where with the along with the rest
10:57:58 of the data you need integrated data to do that. Right. And so what you do is you split your data up into those there left handed.
10:58:03 Bunch crossings in the right hand and bunch crossings and then you measure the towel with the tiles the actual polarization of those samples. And we think that we can get down to much better than a percent, probably half percent that's what we're, we're
10:58:15 thinking we can get.
10:58:16 So the plan is to implement this in late 20 28th.
10:58:21 So there'll be some upgrade window for a new final focuses, and kick be there this r&d for this upgrade proposal was included in the kk roadmap for their ministry that was submitted this year.
10:58:33 And just just to summarize, you know it is open up a unique discovery window, you get precision with.
10:58:42 Basically this on the fermion that are kinematic Lee accessible.
10:58:47 And you also can prob tell local flavor violation show primers, and EDM as well as the f2 at 10 gV competitive measurements with those at the pole. But you are able to test the running of the calm, have the couplings, and you know you because you're away
10:59:01 from the pole you actually are sensitive to TV scale energy's been probably Dark Sector.
10:59:12 So it's for the international partners, you know, come to kk to put this together and we're working with people in the US are going and being out on the hardware side of things.
10:59:28 And in, In France and Canada for the content provider.
10:59:32 So it's actually, you know, looking, looking good.
10:59:37 Okay, stop there, see if there's any questions.
10:59:41 Thank you very much.
10:59:45 Michael, we ever questions in the room pleaser arrest.
10:59:52 Yeah, sure. Thank you. I actually have a bunch of questions so maybe I let jumping go first before I take up all the time.
11:00:02 Okay, thanks.
11:00:05 Um, yeah I also have probably, maybe two brief question. First of all, what is the now the expected
11:00:15 measurement on testing the own beam correlations.
11:00:21 So what is that uncertainty, or the electric measurement.
11:00:28 So we're assuming like so these are studies right and we put in half percent will split the.
11:00:36 And this is coming from the kinematic studies at the towel.
11:00:40 So it's a limited by what kind of system at the are these have percent. That's the thing that blue bar starting it's going to be different for bell to them right so this these are.
11:00:49 That's the thing that bulbar studying it's going to be different for bell to them right so this these are. Let me see if I can actually, I might have some pop down here on.
11:00:58 Oh yeah, okay, actually do talk about the towel here. Since you're asking about it.
11:00:59 So this is the way that it works okay so there's an basically it's a forward backward asymmetry in the town polarization. Okay. And what we do is we measure the polarization as a function of data but it's it's not actually done that way there's a because
11:01:11 I.
11:01:13 They fit to the way we select towels entertainment pie. On one side in a row and the other, and the Python provides the polarization sensitivity. And we're expecting a half percent absolute precision using this.
11:01:29 Okay so includes all of the transport effects luminosity waiting, and a stray positron polarization is probably negligible by line but, but it does Okay, theoretically, somebody reminded me.
11:01:41 It does assume the town neutrinos are 100% left handed. Okay.
11:01:45 And in fact there are studies in Bell today, and believe in bell to actually get the limit on this to, to be negligible effect but it does have that assumption.
11:01:56 Thanks to so I was executive wondering is half percent was the statistical limiter or, it's probably going to be a well the statistical limit is going to depend on how much data you want to include in that.
11:02:11 So, for half what we have with the bar sample, or let's let's 500 inverse femto barns, the statistical uncertainty is going to be less way less than half percent is point 3%.
11:02:24 Okay. Okay, thanks. I went through the iris task, but,
11:02:45 Yeah, so I you showed you know that these left right ultimately measurements you know they can be interpreted as a measurement of the vector toppling two different you know final state fermion. But in principle the whole expression for the left, right.
11:02:49 assembly would include the axial vector complex. So for this study, are you assuming you take the actual vector compelling value from black and sad and so forth.
11:03:00 Well, so the yeah I think for the actual electric coupling of the leptons right.
11:03:06 Let me come back to that expression, you're absolutely correct. There is that assumption in when we're trying to extract, not just even off the leptons but also because the assembly as you know normalized to the total cost section the total cost section
11:03:16 actually depends even on the extra vector coupling of whatever the final state farmers.
11:03:23 Yeah, I haven't really the main my main concern was this one here actually. Yeah, right. So you do have to assume the, the axial vector couple yeah but dancer denominator to that your formula doesn't show here.
11:03:36 Yes, and then we have a yeah so we would be assuming that's coming from, from lap and that I wonder though I mean you could also measure forward backward ultimately.
11:03:46 Yes, as well, which should give you some information about the actual vector coupling I don't know if it will be competitive at all. Actually, internet but yeah In fact, that's a very.
11:03:57 That's a very good question. So in fact, the, what we found is that what's not in this expression, in fact is the angular dependence, this is assuming on a percent.
11:04:09 Okay, so what you could do is, so the Ford back racing a tree itself without the polarization. It's, it's, in fact in this, in this paper here.
11:04:21 We include the four batteries and the three studies. And you can see that it's actually huge right here you're like 20% on certain reason square data W.
11:04:30 So it's not really hot.
11:04:33 Not not natural. But, but now you mentioned, we do know that in fact if you were not going to be full acceptance clearly you have to make a cut, but if you very that cut, look at the left righty symmetry is a function of that cut the the angular acceptance
11:04:50 you do indeed pick up study the Electoral College. Yeah, like you could basically measure wo similar to last night for what back with us. Yeah, yeah. So you could do that.
11:05:11 Yeah, we haven't done that we haven't done those studies. Oh, yeah.
11:05:11 Good.
11:05:08 Yet another question I had since you just mentioned acceptance so you you showed these efficiencies for the different finance states, and they were on the order of 30% or something like that which was some, you know, for the beyond higher but for the
11:05:23 others 30% which seems a little low to me is this, does this include the acceptance or it's just really the particle idea efficiency, not the acceptance, but the acceptance Okay, there was these, I mean look with these it's, it's this is this is work
11:05:37 that still has to be done because the reality is that at the barn, we never really just said, Okay, give me a B How well can we do this.
11:05:48 What we've would do be counting we've always taken data on the for us residents and then asked for us residents, and then you do the subtraction to find out how much we had on the course.
11:05:58 So this what we're doing now what we need to do now is say okay well we don't want to actually want to do that subtraction because that involves systematic uncertainties, we try to minimize those.
11:06:09 So we want to have a selection where you have a high purity B sample with high efficiency. And, interestingly enough, this is a dedicated study that has not yet been done so this is going to be part of our roadmap as we go forward, hopefully in the next
11:06:23 month or so we'll have some people giving some, some reasonable numbers but these numbers are, you know, I think they are realistic, but they would require people to work on this one, this one is pretty solid, and these are pretty solid.
11:06:38 This one is the most solid of law because we actually have a bell to analysis.
11:06:42 These are based on previous measurements and this is a dedicated study. So these two, I think, you know, they may think that these are small but you actually look at if the right now, the analyses, and, you know, what you would do is Tiger be and say
11:06:58 okay we know this has been those efficiencies are are not the highest that you've got so you there is, there will have to be dedicated studies to try and identify BB BB events with a different physics focus.
11:07:14 Yeah, yeah default ends for so evidence makes things harder for electric physics like, for sure. Well, unless you actually just trying to look at these right.
11:07:24 But there is an underlying see that, before us is sitting on the continuum right. So yeah, these from the continuum, the acceptance issues it's mainly it's going to be mainly, you know Bz in the forest, they are now I should drop a concise and essentially.
11:07:40 So the. So that's not the geometrical acceptance is the issue here as much as making sure you got these nothing else. Right.
11:07:52 I have one last little question, you know, which has made just a detailed but so the leopard resides there represented, of course, in terms of this effectively mixing angle, but you also showed you know this running plot which will be the MS bar we can
11:08:07 mixing angle.
11:08:09 So for your studies. Did you plan to do in terms of which of the two. Would you plan to, you know, make your insights available. Yeah, that's too early to ask at this point.
11:08:21 What I found is, it depends on which theorists you're right and some, like, you know, going to be what I'm worried about uncertainty is it really is not makes much, not a lot of difference so those are theoretical questions, but when I you know like.
11:08:37 Let me give you an exam, maybe you will just publish the victor coupling.
11:08:41 well I prefer that that's why I'm worth Yeah.
11:08:47 That's kind of interesting, but we do want to tie it back to science with data w because that's you know that's what you know moulder for example that's what they're selling it on they're talking they're not talking about the company I just gives people
11:08:58 a feeling of, you know, not to compare it to other stuff. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and they will be science great data w measurements ultimately right because it all comes out in Washington, you know you can decide which one you want to use but I know for
11:09:10 example this.
11:09:12 These measures on which ones winning papers are showing earlier, like these calculations here. I believe these are just on shell calculations believe I believe to use the effect of being.
11:09:25 Yeah. And these guys are similar. It's just done shown so, like, yeah, I go get yeah yeah you know it's true that what I'm more focused on is what kind of precision you can get and then the new position won't be different than one.
11:09:41 Yeah, exactly, but at the value will be done.
11:09:46 Okay, thank you.
11:09:56 Yeah. Okay, thank you. Thank you very much for jumping in every question.
11:10:01 Play. It's probably my new question does initiate standardization play a role in measurement of laughter either symmetry.
11:10:12 So,
11:10:15 they would change effective center manager in for the cross section. Right. So, it plays it plays a role and it is incorporated in these studies.
11:10:30 Okay, so the radiation is included in these.
11:10:34 So that, for example, this these dot these points here are from the Monte Carlo KKMC, and it includes initial state abbreviation.
11:10:45 Now, so that so the first answer is yes, it is going to affect it and yes it's incorporated into the end of the Monte Carlo so we've got some Bolton Campsie and in this Renaissance, that include that also includes initial state radiation.
11:11:00 Now if you get really super hard initial state radiation so you're actually changing dramatically changing the center of mass energy.
11:11:08 So you, you know, people have actually said well I'm factoring out of this there was gonna say well, can you actually measure this as a function of energy.
11:11:17 So if you get tagged that hard is our photon.
11:11:21 And you somehow in court reviewed select hired is our photons that you're predominantly or, you know, dominated in these dominated by radiation off of the positrons that you're not really affecting that the polarization of the electron much.
11:11:36 Then, in principle, you could actually with lower statistics, do a nail and measurement is a function of as prime.
11:11:45 Okay. Okay, thanks. But it's again it's going to be pretty low statistics, I'd say you know you're dealing with the fact that honors lesson in statistics when you do that, but in principle II, you can do that.
11:11:56 Yeah, which may be worthwhile doing because this is the place where you actually have this data.
11:12:10 So I, I actually do have one more follow up question to what they just asked before.
11:12:16 So if we look on your slide 16.
11:12:23 This is again about you know the impact of this axial vector coupling and, you know, even though it may just appear, you know, as the, you know, normalization so to say in the denominator after death later.
11:12:38 Similarly, but no one looks especially for the charm you know the covenant certainty is pretty large for the company so did, did you include in your estimate, you know, if you take this value from lab how this would affect your determination of the vector
11:12:52 coupling or is that currently not included as an uncertainty.
11:12:58 So I guess the.
11:13:02 We haven't actually done that but it's something that's pretty straightforward to do. Yeah, I mean the denominator because you know it's,
11:13:30 yeah it'll be an overall kind of a scaling effect right that's what that's what that does, I guess but I imagine it's going to be pretty small.
11:13:30 I mean, well, it's time to is what is the absolute perfect you only have this one number which is the left, right, right. And so even though it's just a scaling effect you're right but if you don't have anything else to, you know, calculate that, with
11:13:36 respect to, then this becomes an uncertainty.
11:13:53 No, that's that's true if we, I mean I guess that's what we'd have to take a look at the actual back your head yeah it's a fair point, or maybe, maybe another way to say instead there
11:13:55 a way that doesn't depend on lab and so the inputs is to say, you are measurement is a certain combination effect on xo vector complex.
11:14:05 And that does hold fast, maybe that would be a way to do it. Yeah, and that that that's that's true. And that's when you would actually then. Yeah, that's great.
11:14:15 They did w right but that that would maybe correspond, not just to, you know, this ever bother to show in this plot but it would be so often this plot or something like that.
11:14:27 I don't know exactly how it would look like.
11:14:39 Yeah, I think that's a good point. And I think it's worthwhile taking back and looking at what the impact would be on that, I mean it could be a you know it'll be a scaling up of this so this was, you know, basically, this kind of a precision where you're
11:14:46 motivating that I don't think it's going to be affected much.
11:14:47 But it's worthwhile.
11:14:49 You know, showing you know how much, how sensitive you are to the, to the overall.
11:14:54 Yeah normalization.
11:14:58 It's, but it is, it is true that we were just assuming that the actual battery companies coming from lab.
11:15:05 Okay.
11:15:08 Well, yeah. Yeah, but for the sake of, you know, this, this preliminary study.
11:15:14 Right. But in the end you will need to propagate the uncertainty on it.
11:15:20 Yeah. Okay. Um, I think it's worthwhile and further investigating that.
11:15:25 Right. Thank you.
11:15:31 Thank you.
11:15:35 I
11:15:39 guess you know raised the most of my questions were called out the whole thing. let me thank you being a diverse.
11:15:44 So, and when we are close to our limited, shall we.
11:15:58 Closer, close the meeting.
11:15:58 Before we do so let me thank you again.